Post by brasilbear on Dec 29, 2016 12:01:12 GMT -6
I think it comes down to the assumptions you make. I'll post mine and then everyone can have fun tearing them apart. They aren't presented in any kind of order, and some may contradict with others. So be it.
(1) Always improve the team. (2) Cutler and Fox are done. (3) Jimmy G > rookie draft pick for several reasons--more NFL experience (being around an NFL team, NFL-level training and coaching is different and more suited to the NFL game), more 'known' around the league than a rookie would be.... (4) rookie > Jimmy G for several reasons--cheaper (assuming JG gets a new deal along with a trade), unknown potential... (5) high picks in the 1st and 2nd round can bring real assets to the Bears (6) Bears need a QB--desperately? maybe but IMO not at an 'at all costs' mindset
So where does that put me? I'd offer our second and decline anything else.
I think you have to take a long term view. You can't let coaches allow good players to be let go (ala an unnamed former Bears tight end named Olsen. oops...). I am not sure that Garoppolo is going to be good or not, but the coaches should not be the reason why we don't take him.
If he is who Pace thinks is the answer, take him. If the coaches fail with him, then maybe that is his excuse to dump his albatross. Fire the people who fail (Fale?), but don't fail to bring in talent.
I voted yes, but it is a qualified "yes". With that said, let me make a few points:
1. I am an admitted fan of Garoppolo, so I openly share that, but I would NEVER advocate for someone on the Bears that I did not think would be in the teams interest. I am partially a fan because I live 30 miles from where he played college ball, so I got a lot of local news. By all accounts, he is not just a very damn good QB (at least at that level), but he is an outstanding person and a real leader. The "outstanding person" part doesn't win ball games, but after years of Jay Cutler, it's a nice bonus.
2. As I stated in another thread, I would never give up our top 1st round pick for the guy, no how, no way. However, I would be in favor of any number of other options that could be put together without giving up the farm. Cleveland has two high 1st round picks; if they are in the mix, don't even bother because we can't compete with that. I am in favor of a trade for him if the trade is reasonable and fair, but I AM NOT in favor of giving up too much as the potential is just not a sure thing.
3. I think Garoppolo gives us a much better option than drafting ANY QB in the 2017 draft. If he was coming out this year based on his performance, I think it's very likely he wouldn't even make it to us with the 3rd pick, and if he did, he would likely be a Chicago Bear. Many of you forget how well he did in college and why he was so well thought of coming out. The only reason he lasted to the second round was due to the size of the school he played. You might remember that he played very well in the East-West Shrine game (Offensive MVP) and was then given the opportunity to play in the Senior Bowl when AJ McCarren bowed out. One of the biggest knocks was obviously the spread system that he led at Eastern Illinois, but after his time in the NFL, I think he's learned the pace of the game and playing under Center, which is ANOTHER benefit he has over some of the college kids coming out this year.
4. Stop with the comparisons of Matt Cassel. I get it, I understand. Ya'll think these guys are machines so if one guy is this way or that way, the next guy with certain similar characteristics or backgrounds will be the same or similar. That's just ignorant. They and we are human beings and most of the QB talent is between the ears. I understand and agree with the lack of starts argument, but for the love o God, please don't start with the Matt Cassel comparisons, the only comparison they have is that they both started out in NE and that's it. You wanna compare the two? OK, Cassel was a 7th round pick out of USC and he never started a single game in college. The guy was a career college backup behind Palmer and Leinart. He threw a total of 33 passes in all 4 years at USC. Garoppolo played at Eastern Illinois University (about as far removed from the University of Southern California as one can get) and became the starter where he also thew for over 5,000 yards in a single season (only one other player in FCS history has done that).
Bottom line is that none of us know how he or these kids coming out of the draft will play. It is damned difficult to judge QB talent, mostly because, as I stated above, so much of it is between the ears and you just never know if it's gonna click at this level. There are myriad examples of bust after bust after bust and Jimmy G may be another in a long line of such examples. However, if he's available and we have an opportunity without selling out completely, I think we could do w helluva lot worse and he may just turn out to be pretty damn good. Hell even Matt Cassel went to the Pro-Bowl after he was traded to Kansas City (2010) so he wasn't all bad.
Craig Krenzel is also a great person, a good leader, and in top of that the man is very smart. How did that translate to wins for us or even average QB play?
Post by xaosgorilla on Dec 29, 2016 12:15:33 GMT -6
NE's asking price is a first and a fourth. Price too high. Sample size of NFL games too small. Add in the slated to start 4 games, only started 2 factor and this makes me even more skittish.
If we were just a QB shy of being contenders, I would consider this trade. At my count, the Bears are 14-16 starters, (note: not impact play makers, starters), away from being a good team. For those reasons, No.
One other point to ponder here. Garoppolo's contract ends after this next season. If the Bears have the butt-ugly season that most foresee, and we still have the dysfunctional organization - and some iffy coaching - Garoppolo can run from this franchise like his underwear is on fire. He will be able to go anywhere he wants, that has a need for a QB.
I have my doubts he'd stay here with The Logg and the others here in this land of misfit toys. And some have said he might insist on a new contract to come here. I honestly doubt that he would want to tie himself down here in Chicago - the place where quarterbacks come to die - when he can walk away a free man after 2017.
A draftee on the other hand is ours for an extended contract while we rebuild the franchise - including beyond the firing of the existing coaching staff after 2017 season.
This decision is not as black-and-white as some think it is. Fox isn't Belichick. The Bears offense is not New England. We are not a super bowl quality team like the Pats. I'm not sure I'd like to see us mortgage the farm for a QB that Belichick is willing to jettison either.
Can't you just see us giving up a ton for a QB who comes here and is not even as good as Jay Cutler? I can.
One other point to ponder here. Garoppolo's contract ends after this next season. If the Bears have the butt-ugly season that most foresee, and we still have the dysfunctional organization - and some iffy coaching - Garoppolo can run from this franchise like his underwear is on fire. He will be able to go anywhere he wants, that has a need for a QB.
I have my doubts he'd stay here with The Logg and the others here in this land of misfit toys. And some have said he might insist on a new contract to come here. I honestly doubt that he would want to tie himself down here in Chicago - the place where quarterbacks come to die - when he can walk away a free man after 2017.
A draftee on the other hand is ours for an extended contract while we rebuild the franchise - including beyond the firing of the existing coaching staff after 2017 season.
This decision is not as black-and-white as some think it is. Fox isn't Belichick. The Bears offense is not New England. We are not a super bowl quality team like the Pats. I'm not sure I'd like to see us mortgage the farm for a QB that Belichick is willing to jettison either.
Can't you just see us giving up a ton for a QB who comes here and is not even as good as Jay Cutler? I can.
I don't trust Pace to decide what a QBs true worth is. We need a guy with a proven track record on #nailingit when it comes to knowing what to pay a QB. Bring back Emery as a consultant.
One other point to ponder here. Garoppolo's contract ends after this next season. If the Bears have the butt-ugly season that most foresee, and we still have the dysfunctional organization - and some iffy coaching - Garoppolo can run from this franchise like his underwear is on fire. He will be able to go anywhere he wants, that has a need for a QB.
I have my doubts he'd stay here with The Logg and the others here in this land of misfit toys. And some have said he might insist on a new contract to come here. I honestly doubt that he would want to tie himself down here in Chicago - the place where quarterbacks come to die - when he can walk away a free man after 2017.
A draftee on the other hand is ours for an extended contract while we rebuild the franchise - including beyond the firing of the existing coaching staff after 2017 season.
This decision is not as black-and-white as some think it is. Fox isn't Belichick. The Bears offense is not New England. We are not a super bowl quality team like the Pats. I'm not sure I'd like to see us mortgage the farm for a QB that Belichick is willing to jettison either.
Can't you just see us giving up a ton for a QB who comes here and is not even as good as Jay Cutler? I can.
I don't trust Pace to decide what a QBs true worth is. We need a guy with a proven track record on #nailingit when it comes to knowing what to pay a QB.
You're saying we need to get HeHateMe to make the QB pick? I'd be Mudd7 if that happened :-)
I don't trust Pace to decide what a QBs true worth is. We need a guy with a proven track record on #nailingit when it comes to knowing what to pay a QB.
You're saying we need to get HeHateMe to make the QB pick? I'd be Mudd7 if that happened :-)
I voted yes, but it is a qualified "yes". With that said, let me make a few points:
1. I am an admitted fan of Garoppolo, so I openly share that, but I would NEVER advocate for someone on the Bears that I did not think would be in the teams interest. I am partially a fan because I live 30 miles from where he played college ball, so I got a lot of local news. By all accounts, he is not just a very damn good QB (at least at that level), but he is an outstanding person and a real leader. The "outstanding person" part doesn't win ball games, but after years of Jay Cutler, it's a nice bonus.
2. As I stated in another thread, I would never give up our top 1st round pick for the guy, no how, no way. However, I would be in favor of any number of other options that could be put together without giving up the farm. Cleveland has two high 1st round picks; if they are in the mix, don't even bother because we can't compete with that. I am in favor of a trade for him if the trade is reasonable and fair, but I AM NOT in favor of giving up too much as the potential is just not a sure thing.
3. I think Garoppolo gives us a much better option than drafting ANY QB in the 2017 draft. If he was coming out this year based on his performance, I think it's very likely he wouldn't even make it to us with the 3rd pick, and if he did, he would likely be a Chicago Bear. Many of you forget how well he did in college and why he was so well thought of coming out. The only reason he lasted to the second round was due to the size of the school he played. You might remember that he played very well in the East-West Shrine game (Offensive MVP) and was then given the opportunity to play in the Senior Bowl when AJ McCarren bowed out. One of the biggest knocks was obviously the spread system that he led at Eastern Illinois, but after his time in the NFL, I think he's learned the pace of the game and playing under Center, which is ANOTHER benefit he has over some of the college kids coming out this year.
4. Stop with the comparisons of Matt Cassel. I get it, I understand. Ya'll think these guys are machines so if one guy is this way or that way, the next guy with certain similar characteristics or backgrounds will be the same or similar. That's just ignorant. They and we are human beings and most of the QB talent is between the ears. I understand and agree with the lack of starts argument, but for the love o God, please don't start with the Matt Cassel comparisons, the only comparison they have is that they both started out in NE and that's it. You wanna compare the two? OK, Cassel was a 7th round pick out of USC and he never started a single game in college. The guy was a career college backup behind Palmer and Leinart. He threw a total of 33 passes in all 4 years at USC. Garoppolo played at Eastern Illinois University (about as far removed from the University of Southern California as one can get) and became the starter where he also thew for over 5,000 yards in a single season (only one other player in FCS history has done that).
Bottom line is that none of us know how he or these kids coming out of the draft will play. It is damned difficult to judge QB talent, mostly because, as I stated above, so much of it is between the ears and you just never know if it's gonna click at this level. There are myriad examples of bust after bust after bust and Jimmy G may be another in a long line of such examples. However, if he's available and we have an opportunity without selling out completely, I think we could do w helluva lot worse and he may just turn out to be pretty damn good. Hell even Matt Cassel went to the Pro-Bowl after he was traded to Kansas City (2010) so he wasn't all bad.
Craig Krenzel is also a great person, a good leader, and in top of that the man is very smart. How did that translate to wins for us or even average QB play?
Well, I think I stated that the whole "great person" thing doesn't buy any wins, it's just an extra perk. Are you saying that being a good leader isn't a quality that a QB should have? Are you suggesting Craig Krenzel is the same as Garoppolo or are you just throwing a name of a failed QB from the past? If it's the latter, can't you literally do that with ANY QB we bring in? Who would you like to see under center for the Bears?
