I'm actually surprised MOTM wants a top pick since he has no faith in Pace making good first round picks.
Regardless of my joke, as much as I wanted to have a top pick I prefer watching a competitive team. I want to have fun watching games. I want to see players improve. I want to see the team build towards being a better team next year. I don't think you build much confidence when you are tanking a season. I want to see players perform well and get excited to be part of this team next year.
I know this team has like a 1% chance to make the playoffs but they are 2-1 in the division. That sounds a hell of a lot better than there overall 2-6 record. What if somehow the Bears managed to have the best division record?
They might have the best division record. Depends on how well the Packers do.
I want Pace to have a shot at a top 3 pick. I want him a chance to have many different real options instead of going for whatever is left. A top 3-5 pick will jump start this team.
This year is meaningless. Build for tomorrow.
I loved my grandfather. He was an honest, straightforward speaking man who loved George Halas and the one who made me into a Bears fan at an early age. I was crushed when he died before I was even 8 years old.
In honor of him I would like to tell you what he would say about your theories of losing to win Monsters. He'd say....................
This is a bunch of horseshit.
Thanks gramps.....I love you but you never told me the part about just how hard it would be to be a Bears fan and deal with some of this crap.
Tell McPhee these wins are meaningless. Tell Freeman these wins are meaningless. Tell Trevatham these wins are meaningless. Tell Young these wins are meaningless. Tell Porter these wins are meaningless. Tell Jeffery these wins are meaningless. Tell Miller these wins are meaningless.
Tell Howard not to run so hard because these wins are meaningless. Tell Meredith not to improve as a receiver because these wins are meaningless. Tell the young secondary to stop trying to improve technique be wise these wins are meaningless.
Do you not understand that every week could be the last game for these players? Can I be there when you tell McPhee that he doesn't need to try so hard because you want to draft another pass rusher to take his place?
Tell McPhee these wins are meaningless. Tell Freeman these wins are meaningless. Tell Trevatham these wins are meaningless. Tell Young these wins are meaningless. Tell Porter these wins are meaningless. Tell Jeffery these wins are meaningless. Tell Miller these wins are meaningless.
Tell Howard not to run so hard because these wins are meaningless. Tell Meredith not to improve as a receiver because these wins are meaningless. Tell the young secondary to stop trying to improve technique be wise these wins are meaningless.
Do you not understand that every week could be the last game for these players? Can I be there when you tell McPhee that he doesn't need to try so hard because you want to draft another pass rusher to take his place?
And why would you even consider throttling back a player or his development? I think everyone is speaking English, but not everyone is understanding. Winning for next year can take many forms. For sure it should include playing and developing players that will be the future. The regard for future utility takes precedence over short term wins in order to build a stronger team for a longer period of time. Things are twisted in order to make them sound stupid so that certain viewpoints can be more easily sustained. Either that or it is just simply not understood.
Tell McPhee these wins are meaningless. Tell Freeman these wins are meaningless. Tell Trevatham these wins are meaningless. Tell Young these wins are meaningless. Tell Porter these wins are meaningless. Tell Jeffery these wins are meaningless. Tell Miller these wins are meaningless.
Tell Howard not to run so hard because these wins are meaningless. Tell Meredith not to improve as a receiver because these wins are meaningless. Tell the young secondary to stop trying to improve technique be wise these wins are meaningless.
Do you not understand that every week could be the last game for these players? Can I be there when you tell McPhee that he doesn't need to try so hard because you want to draft another pass rusher to take his place?
And why would you even consider throttling back a player or his development? I think everyone is speaking English, but not everyone is understanding. Winning for next year can take many forms. For sure it should include playing and developing players that will be the future. The regard for future utility takes precedence over short term wins in order to build a stronger team for a longer period of time. Things are twisted in order to make them sound stupid so that certain viewpoints can be more easily sustained. Either that or it is just simply not understood.
The reason so many of us push back so hard against some of these ideas is that they are presented as 'fact' or ' the only way forward' when truthfully they aren't. Many of them are simply dumb to put it bluntly or based on media narratives created to drive link clicks or hot takes.
Anyone is free to post whatever they want, just expect and accept a little push back.
The Packers have drafted in the top 5 once in the last 10 years and only twice since the god damn 80's!
The Patriots are known for their ability to swap players out and not miss a beat, and have drafted in the top 6 once in the 2000's.
You can claim that they draft well, which does have truth behind it but neither team has had overly outstanding drafts recently. They keep winning because they're programmed to do it, by continually winning. Believe it or not, when you win you teach other players how to win as well.
Losing is a cancer that takes so much more than a top 3 pick to cure. Yes the Broncos won with a recent top pick, but they also had to go out and fill the roster and pay their dues with a few years of building a winning culture first. Teaching your team, top-to-bottom how to be successful take a lot more than drafting a good player to play one position
Their ability to win depends on their QB.
You really think BB could easily get rid of Jones and Collins two of which were their best defensive players so easily? If he didn't have Brady he would of never attempted those trades. Those are some of the advantages having a HoF QB has.
Panthers, Broncos, Vikings, Cowboys, and Texans all got help by their high draft picks.
Of course the Broncos needed to fill in a team with FA players. They're rebuilding like us. This team doesn't have close to the same talent as these playoff teams have. Build for the future. We have 0 chances at a playoff.
That is usually true but this year proved that wrong. Some teams do not need a HoF QB, some just need a great system like the Patriots. The Patriots do not need Brady to win, it obviously helps but they do not need him. They are still going to be a winning franchise when Brady retires and they are still going to draft a QB almost every year because that's what smart franchises do.
The Packers have had a great QB but they're not performing that well now. The QB can't do everything. It may be the most important position on the team but he still needs help from everyone else. All you need is a competent QB with a good supporting cast and coaching staff that has a good system. It's a very simple concept yet very hard to implement.
And why would you even consider throttling back a player or his development? I think everyone is speaking English, but not everyone is understanding. Winning for next year can take many forms. For sure it should include playing and developing players that will be the future. The regard for future utility takes precedence over short term wins in order to build a stronger team for a longer period of time. Things are twisted in order to make them sound stupid so that certain viewpoints can be more easily sustained. Either that or it is just simply not understood.
The reason so many of us push back so hard against some of these ideas is that they are presented as 'fact' or ' the only way forward' when truthfully they aren't. Many of them are simply dumb to put it bluntly or based on media narratives created to drive link clicks or hot takes.
Anyone is free to post whatever they want, just expect and accept a little push back.
oh hell, I have no issue whatsoever with people not agreeing with my viewpoint. Not even a little. As I said in my post, what I don't like is people putting words in my mouth or making ridiculous reaches on something said to support an argument. i never said to try to lose. I never said not to put forth full effort. What I said was that the goal is to make a better team and one that can be competitive for many super bowls. If you are not going to be in the playoffs, then that year is a no go for purposes of meeting those goals. No matter how you slice it that is the way it is. If you are not going to make the playoffs, you have no chance to be in the SB. However, the focus can never be taken off of winning the SB and making the team better. When you are in the position of not being able to do that this year, what do you do? You still try to get better for the long haul. You don't give up the goal. The things that can make you better are better coaches and better players.
That does not always mean different coaches and players (although it might). It means better. That means the people in place can also get better. So the people that you want to play long term.... play them. You need them better for next year. Note that nowhere in there did I say that you don't play as hard as you can or to win. You just play to meet the long term goal that is no longer in reach for this year. And yes, for me, part of getting better is a high draft pick. So while I want all players to play as hard as they can, I still hope for as many losses as possible when the season is gone. I want the higher pick.
For some, the thing is that they say still win as many as you can and it's the GMs job to find good players whenever they pick. I get it. Teams do it all the time. I just want access to those earlier picks whenever possible. I will take every edge I can. If you are not going to win this year, then try to win next year.
The reason so many of us push back so hard against some of these ideas is that they are presented as 'fact' or ' the only way forward' when truthfully they aren't. Many of them are simply dumb to put it bluntly or based on media narratives created to drive link clicks or hot takes.
Anyone is free to post whatever they want, just expect and accept a little push back.
oh hell, I have no issue whatsoever with people not agreeing with my viewpoint. Not even a little. As I said in my post, what I don't like is people putting words in my mouth or making ridiculous reaches on something said to support an argument. i never said to try to lose. I never said not to put forth full effort. What I said was that the goal is to make a better team and one that can be competitive for many super bowls. If you are not going to be in the playoffs, then that year is a no go for purposes of meeting those goals. No matter how you slice it that is the way it is. If you are not going to make the playoffs, you have no chance to be in the SB. However, the focus can never be taken off of winning the SB and making the team better. When you are in the position of not being able to do that this year, what do you do? You still try to get better for the long haul. You don't give up the goal. The things that can make you better are better coaches and better players.
That does not always mean different coaches and players (although it might). It means better. That means the people in place can also get better. So the people that you want to play long term.... play them. You need them better for next year. Note that nowhere in there did I say that you don't play as hard as you can or to win. You just play to meet the long term goal that is no longer in reach for this year. And yes, for me, part of getting better is a high draft pick. So while I want all players to play as hard as they can, I still hope for as many losses as possible when the season is gone. I want the higher pick.
For some, the thing is that they say still win as many as you can and it's the GMs job to find good players whenever they pick. I get it. Teams do it all the time. I just want access to those earlier picks whenever possible. I will take every edge I can. If you are not going to win this year, then try to win next year.
I wasn't arguing with you, maybe just expanding on my thinking and posting these days. I agree 100% with what you wrote. The starters the Bears use next year might already be on the roster, getting experience playing and trying to win right now. This team is still going to end up with a top 8 draft pick, Hoyer saw to that. I guess he did his job after all. (Hot take with no support what-so-ever but still fun to type.) By seasons end the team needs might have changed from what we think they are now. If winning a few 'meaningless' games means the Pace can draft smarter or more accurately, thats great. Just don't come on here and post that losing is how to get better.
oh hell, I have no issue whatsoever with people not agreeing with my viewpoint. Not even a little. As I said in my post, what I don't like is people putting words in my mouth or making ridiculous reaches on something said to support an argument. i never said to try to lose. I never said not to put forth full effort. What I said was that the goal is to make a better team and one that can be competitive for many super bowls. If you are not going to be in the playoffs, then that year is a no go for purposes of meeting those goals. No matter how you slice it that is the way it is. If you are not going to make the playoffs, you have no chance to be in the SB. However, the focus can never be taken off of winning the SB and making the team better. When you are in the position of not being able to do that this year, what do you do? You still try to get better for the long haul. You don't give up the goal. The things that can make you better are better coaches and better players.
That does not always mean different coaches and players (although it might). It means better. That means the people in place can also get better. So the people that you want to play long term.... play them. You need them better for next year. Note that nowhere in there did I say that you don't play as hard as you can or to win. You just play to meet the long term goal that is no longer in reach for this year. And yes, for me, part of getting better is a high draft pick. So while I want all players to play as hard as they can, I still hope for as many losses as possible when the season is gone. I want the higher pick.
For some, the thing is that they say still win as many as you can and it's the GMs job to find good players whenever they pick. I get it. Teams do it all the time. I just want access to those earlier picks whenever possible. I will take every edge I can. If you are not going to win this year, then try to win next year.
I wasn't arguing with you, maybe just expanding on my thinking and posting these days. I agree 100% with what you wrote. The starters the Bears use next year might already be on the roster, getting experience playing and trying to win right now. This team is still going to end up with a top 8 draft pick, Hoyer saw to that. I guess he did his job after all. (Hot take with no support what-so-ever but still fun to type.) By seasons end the team needs might have changed from what we think they are now. If winning a few 'meaningless' games means the Pace can draft smarter or more accurately, thats great. Just don't come on here and post that losing is how to get better.
Losing gets you a higher draft pick. A higher draft pick makes you better. I don't want to make it seem like I am backing away from my original point. It's just that TRYING to lose or not giving full effort never come into the equation for me. You try to win and I only hope for losses when the team is out of it. I just keep my eye on the prize and whatever is going to get us there given the circumstances at the time is what I want. SO yes, I switch from wanting to win to wanting to lose depending on the circumstances. But I NEVER deviate from full effort and trying to make the team better.
Unfortunately this wanting to lose thing should only have been a one or two year thing. Once the team is competitive and has a chance to be in the playoffs, a higher draft pick and losing should never enter into the conversation. It seems that every year we end up pretty much out of the playoffs early and so this keeps coming up every year. I wish they would finally just get over the hump and at least get us to the point where we are competitive. Until that point though, as soon as we are out of contention, I want as high a pick as we can get. But that's me. Not everyone is going to agree with that. And that's ok by me.
I wasn't arguing with you, maybe just expanding on my thinking and posting these days. I agree 100% with what you wrote. The starters the Bears use next year might already be on the roster, getting experience playing and trying to win right now. This team is still going to end up with a top 8 draft pick, Hoyer saw to that. I guess he did his job after all. (Hot take with no support what-so-ever but still fun to type.) By seasons end the team needs might have changed from what we think they are now. If winning a few 'meaningless' games means the Pace can draft smarter or more accurately, thats great. Just don't come on here and post that losing is how to get better.
Losing gets you a higher draft pick. A higher draft pick makes you better. I don't want to make it seem like I am backing away from my original point. It's just that TRYING to lose or not giving full effort never come into the equation for me. You try to win and I only hope for losses when the team is out of it. I just keep my eye on the prize and whatever is going to get us there given the circumstances at the time is what I want. SO yes, I switch from wanting to win to wanting to lose depending on the circumstances. But I NEVER deviate from full effort and trying to make the team better.
Unfortunately this wanting to lose thing should only have been a one or two year thing. Once the team is competitive and has a chance to be in the playoffs, a higher draft pick and losing should never enter into the conversation. It seems that every year we end up pretty much out of the playoffs early and so this keeps coming up every year. I wish they would finally just get over the hump and at least get us to the point where we are competitive. Until that point though, as soon as we are out of contention, I want as high a pick as we can get. But that's me. Not everyone is going to agree with that. And that's ok by me.
I think we are in agreement here, just debating semantics. I want a high draft pick as possible too, but would like to see the team improve through experience even if that means a few 'meaningless wins.' IMO (and only IMO) the improvement gained through experience will be greater across the board than the difference between picking at 5th spot or 8th spot. What I don't want is year after year of picking at the 7-9 or 8-8 position. The 20th to 25th pick in the draft year after year after year.
Losing gets you a higher draft pick. A higher draft pick makes you better. I don't want to make it seem like I am backing away from my original point. It's just that TRYING to lose or not giving full effort never come into the equation for me. You try to win and I only hope for losses when the team is out of it. I just keep my eye on the prize and whatever is going to get us there given the circumstances at the time is what I want. SO yes, I switch from wanting to win to wanting to lose depending on the circumstances. But I NEVER deviate from full effort and trying to make the team better.
Unfortunately this wanting to lose thing should only have been a one or two year thing. Once the team is competitive and has a chance to be in the playoffs, a higher draft pick and losing should never enter into the conversation. It seems that every year we end up pretty much out of the playoffs early and so this keeps coming up every year. I wish they would finally just get over the hump and at least get us to the point where we are competitive. Until that point though, as soon as we are out of contention, I want as high a pick as we can get. But that's me. Not everyone is going to agree with that. And that's ok by me.
I think we are in agreement here, just debating semantics. I want a high draft pick as possible too, but would like to see the team improve through experience even if that means a few 'meaningless wins.' IMO (and only IMO) the improvement gained through experience will be greater across the board than the difference between picking at 5th spot or 8th spot. What I don't want is year after year of picking at the 7-9 or 8-8 position. The 20th to 25th pick in the draft year after year after year.