I agree the tape and interviews are most important. But bench press, jumping, and drills show the guy’s upper body strength, leg power, and agility. That’s why they do them.
I gotta be honest...as someone who's prepared guys for this...its pretty worthless. The bench press is a joke...the jumping is valuable....all the other drills though? Pointless. Guys don't play the game in tights with predetermined movements.
I gotta be honest...as someone who's prepared guys for this...it’s pretty worthless. The bench press is a joke...the jumping is valuable....all the other drills though? Pointless. Guys don't play the game in tights with predetermined movements.
I know you’ve said that before. There was a guy on the old forum who knew something about football. He made a study JJ Watts pass rush techniques. He said one of his first moves sometimes was to “bench press” the blocker to knock him back on his heels. Obviously, the more force you can apply, the more effective the technique.
The problem with that is the fact that what a JJ Watt is doing is infinitely more complex than some guy in a gym who can bench big weights. And I know that you also know this... it's what these guys DO in actual game situations against real people that matters more than the silly drills these guys do in shorts at a Combine. Sure. Players need to be fast and strong. But the drills really don't map to the real world of playing NFL football. LOL, the mental picture that comes to mind as I type this is that photo of Tom Brady at the Combine where he looked like a skinny "picked bird" and his 40 time could be better clocked with a calendar than a stop watch... and he came out of there (the year 2000 Combine) with a 6th round draft grade: "Athletically, Brady was far from a desirable prospect. He ran awkwardly and slowly."
I can go to our local gym and find people who can bench more reps than JJ Watt did at the Combine (34). But you wouldn't want to draft 'em and expect them to play NFL football like a JJ Watt. Just to drive that point home, the record holder for bench rep performance at the NFL Combine is Justin Ernest, a DL from Eastern Kentucky University who put up 51 reps. Never heard of him? I didn't think so. He went undrafted and never played in the NFL (he made the Saints' practice squad for one season and was let go).
I know you’ve said that before. There was a guy on the old forum who knew something about football. He made a study JJ Watts pass rush techniques. He said one of his first moves sometimes was to “bench press” the blocker to knock him back on his heels. Obviously, the more force you can apply, the more effective the technique.
The problem with that is the fact that what a JJ Watt is doing is infinitely more complex than some guy in a gym who can bench big weights. And I know that you also know this... it's what these guys DO in actual game situations against real people that matters more than the silly drills these guys do in shorts at a Combine. Sure. Players need to be fast and strong. But the drills really don't map to the real world of playing NFL football. LOL, the mental picture that comes to mind as I type this is that photo of Tom Brady at the Combine where he looked like a skinny "picked bird" and his 40 time could be better clocked with a calendar than a stop watch... and he came out of there (the year 2000 Combine) with a 6th round draft grade: "Athletically, Brady was far from a desirable prospect. He ran awkwardly and slowly."
I can go to our local gym and find people who can bench more reps than JJ Watt did at the Combine (34). But you wouldn't want to draft 'em and expect them to play NFL football like a JJ Watt. Just to drive that point home, the record holder for bench rep performance at the NFL Combine is Justin Ernest, a DL from Eastern Kentucky University who put up 51 reps. Never heard of him? I didn't think so. He went undrafted and never played in the NFL (he made the Saints' practice squad for one season and was let go).
Sure, weight lifters can bench more weight than a football player. True, but not relevant to my point. Not many football players can do 34 reps, and that’s plenty strong enough for Watt to do this technique. Of course, he has many other tools in his repertoire, but this is one them.
I gotta be honest...as someone who's prepared guys for this...it’s pretty worthless. The bench press is a joke...the jumping is valuable....all the other drills though? Pointless. Guys don't play the game in tights with predetermined movements.
I know you’ve said that before. There was a guy on the old forum who knew something about football. He made a study JJ Watts pass rush techniques. He said one of his first moves sometimes was to “bench press” the blocker to knock him back on his heels. Obviously, the more force you can apply, the more effective the technique.
They're two totally different things...and repping 225 a bunch of times doesn't show any sort of ability to do that. Thats called speed to power and there's a host of things that go into it...none of which involves repping 225 a bunch of times. I saw a quote from Travis Kelce this week that pertains to this...the interviewer asked him what the atmosphere was like in the weight room in high school when he hit 315 on the bench for the first time. Travis Kelce's answer was "took me all the way till my last year of college to hit 315 on the bench...and I haven't touched it since!"
I know you’ve said that before. There was a guy on the old forum who knew something about football. He made a study JJ Watts pass rush techniques. He said one of his first moves sometimes was to “bench press” the blocker to knock him back on his heels. Obviously, the more force you can apply, the more effective the technique.
They're two totally different things...and repping 225 a bunch of times doesn't show any sort of ability to do that. Thats called speed to power and there's a host of things that go into it...none of which involves repping 225 a bunch of times. I saw a quote from Travis Kelce this week that pertains to this...the interviewer asked him what the atmosphere was like in the weight room in high school when he hit 315 on the bench for the first time. Travis Kelce's answer was "took me all the way till my last year of college to hit 315 on the bench...and I haven't touched it since!"
Reping 225 pounds is one indicator of upper body strength. Upper body strength is an asset for interior linemen. I am not talking about TE and I am not talking about speed to power. The technique we are talking about with Watt BEGINS with a hard shove into the blocker’s chest to upset his balance, then go around him.
They're two totally different things...and repping 225 a bunch of times doesn't show any sort of ability to do that. Thats called speed to power and there's a host of things that go into it...none of which involves repping 225 a bunch of times. I saw a quote from Travis Kelce this week that pertains to this...the interviewer asked him what the atmosphere was like in the weight room in high school when he hit 315 on the bench for the first time. Travis Kelce's answer was "took me all the way till my last year of college to hit 315 on the bench...and I haven't touched it since!"
Reping 225 pounds is one indicator of upper body strength. Upper body strength is an asset for interior linemen. I am not talking about TE and I am not talking about speed to power. The technique we are talking about with Watt BEGINS with a hard shove into the blocker’s chest to upset his balance, then go around him.
That IS what you're talking about though. Speed to Power pass rush involves aligning yourself to where the QB will be in his last step of his drop and rushing on that line. You're trying to gain as much ground as you can in 2 to 3 steps...what comes next depends on what the tackle does, but it all starts by converting the speed you gathered in those first 2 to 3 steps into power by punching into the tackle and either grabbing the outside shoulder and turning him, long arming them, or pulling the inside shoulder/swiping inside hand/humping to an inside rush. So it doesn't begin with the hard shove...it begins with the get off and the ability to build speed, recognize what the tackle is doing, then punch and go from there. If the defensive player cannot build speed the move will not be as effective if effective at all. The speed is what sets up the tackle to be off balance...the punch finishes it off. There are so many things that matter more than upper body strength in these types of rushes, get off as I said, the ability to understand angles, the ability to read the tackles movement and understand leverage, pad level, etc. Dom Rob had one of the highest rep counts on the 225 test at the combine for defensive lineman with 25...hows it worked out for him? Khalil Mack only repped 225 23 times...he's got one of the best long arms in the business.
I'm not saying upper body strength isn't important...it clearly is.
Reping 225 pounds is one indicator of upper body strength. Upper body strength is an asset for interior linemen. I am not talking about TE and I am not talking about speed to power. The technique we are talking about with Watt BEGINS with a hard shove into the blocker’s chest to upset his balance, then go around him.
That IS what you're talking about though. Speed to Power pass rush involves aligning yourself to where the QB will be in his last step of his drop and rushing on that line. You're trying to gain as much ground as you can in 2 to 3 steps...what comes next depends on what the tackle does, but it all starts by converting the speed you gathered in those first 2 to 3 steps into power by punching into the tackle and either grabbing the outside shoulder and turning him, long arming them, or pulling the inside shoulder/swiping inside hand/humping to an inside rush. So it doesn't begin with the hard shove...it begins with the get off and the ability to build speed, recognize what the tackle is doing, then punch and go from there. If the defensive player cannot build speed the move will not be as effective if effective at all. The speed is what sets up the tackle to be off balance...the punch finishes it off. There are so many things that matter more than upper body strength in these types of rushes, get off as I said, the ability to understand angles, the ability to read the tackles movement and understand leverage, pad level, etc. Dom Rob had one of the highest rep counts on the 225 test at the combine for defensive lineman with 25...hows it worked out for him? Khalil Mack only repped 225 23 times...he's got one of the best long arms in the business.
I'm not saying upper body strength isn't important...it clearly is.
I know all that. Watt was not a DE using speed to power technique. What I am talking about is two interior linemen engaged in hand-to-hand combat in close quarters. He is not running at the guy for two or three steps before engaging. The FIRST move is hands to blocker’s chest and shove him off balance, then get around him. Upper body strength enables that first move.
That IS what you're talking about though. Speed to Power pass rush involves aligning yourself to where the QB will be in his last step of his drop and rushing on that line. You're trying to gain as much ground as you can in 2 to 3 steps...what comes next depends on what the tackle does, but it all starts by converting the speed you gathered in those first 2 to 3 steps into power by punching into the tackle and either grabbing the outside shoulder and turning him, long arming them, or pulling the inside shoulder/swiping inside hand/humping to an inside rush. So it doesn't begin with the hard shove...it begins with the get off and the ability to build speed, recognize what the tackle is doing, then punch and go from there. If the defensive player cannot build speed the move will not be as effective if effective at all. The speed is what sets up the tackle to be off balance...the punch finishes it off. There are so many things that matter more than upper body strength in these types of rushes, get off as I said, the ability to understand angles, the ability to read the tackles movement and understand leverage, pad level, etc. Dom Rob had one of the highest rep counts on the 225 test at the combine for defensive lineman with 25...hows it worked out for him? Khalil Mack only repped 225 23 times...he's got one of the best long arms in the business.
I'm not saying upper body strength isn't important...it clearly is.
I know all that. Watt was not a DE using speed to power technique. What I am talking about is two interior linemen engaged in hand-to-hand combat in close quarters. He is not running at the guy for two or three steps before engaging. The FIRST move is hands to blocker’s chest and shove him off balance, then get around him. Upper body strength enables that first move.
JJ Watt lined up wide A LOT! So yeah, he was a DE using speed to power.
Either way, even for the example you provided...again, upper body strength is one small portion of it. The bigger portion in that scenario is the power and force one can develop with their lower body to "launch" themselves into the offensive lineman. Upper body punch isn't doing the job alone. Furthermore, speed is paramount, because if the offensive lineman gets to me first, I most likely lose. Its why bench press is kind of a poor exercise because in this motion, I'm not cocking my arms back and bringing them forward, as you would in a bench press. I'm exploding out of my stance with my hand going right from the ground and working towards extension with my arms. Next, my projection and my "punch" need to be upwards into the offensive lineman, which along with my speed beating him to a spot, will help cause that imbalance. If I come out of my stance too high, I'm most likely beat. Interestingly, studies have shown a significant positive associations between force production coming out of a 3 point stance, and 10 yard sprint time, and minimal to no association with 1 rep max bench strength.
I know all that. Watt was not a DE using speed to power technique. What I am talking about is two interior linemen engaged in hand-to-hand combat in close quarters. He is not running at the guy for two or three steps before engaging. The FIRST move is hands to blocker’s chest and shove him off balance, then get around him. Upper body strength enables that first move.
JJ Watt lined up wide A LOT! So yeah, he was a DE using speed to power.
Either way, even for the example you provided...again, upper body strength is one small portion of it. The bigger portion in that scenario is the power and force one can develop with their lower body to "launch" themselves into the offensive lineman. Upper body punch isn't doing the job alone. Furthermore, speed is paramount, because if the offensive lineman gets to me first, I most likely lose. It’s why bench press is kind of a poor exercise because in this motion, I'm not cocking my arms back and bringing them forward, as you would in a bench press. I'm exploding out of my stance with my hand going right from the ground and working towards extension with my arms. Next, my projection and my "punch" need to be upwards into the offensive lineman, which along with my speed beating him to a spot, will help cause that imbalance. If I come out of my stance too high, I'm most likely beat. Interestingly, studies have shown a significant positive associations between force production coming out of a 3 point stance, and 10 yard sprint time, and minimal to no association with 1 rep max bench strength.
The motion is different, but in the end, you are still pushing the blocker. I am not talking about times Watt lined up outside and used speed to power. Physics says F=MA. so naturally you hit with more force if you are accelerating into him rather than slugging it out toe-to-toe.
JJ Watt lined up wide A LOT! So yeah, he was a DE using speed to power.
Either way, even for the example you provided...again, upper body strength is one small portion of it. The bigger portion in that scenario is the power and force one can develop with their lower body to "launch" themselves into the offensive lineman. Upper body punch isn't doing the job alone. Furthermore, speed is paramount, because if the offensive lineman gets to me first, I most likely lose. It’s why bench press is kind of a poor exercise because in this motion, I'm not cocking my arms back and bringing them forward, as you would in a bench press. I'm exploding out of my stance with my hand going right from the ground and working towards extension with my arms. Next, my projection and my "punch" need to be upwards into the offensive lineman, which along with my speed beating him to a spot, will help cause that imbalance. If I come out of my stance too high, I'm most likely beat. Interestingly, studies have shown a significant positive associations between force production coming out of a 3 point stance, and 10 yard sprint time, and minimal to no association with 1 rep max bench strength.
The motion is different, but in the end, you are still pushing the blocker. I am not talking about times Watt lined up outside and used speed to power. Physics says F=MA. so naturally you hit with more force if you are accelerating into him rather than slugging it out toe-to-toe.
You and Butkus are so funny with these arguments. LOL. But regarding the bench press, I'm not sold on it being some end-all measurement that maps to the NFL. Nobody will argue that strength is important. But functional strength is a different thing than benching 225 pounds in a gym setting. It just is. It would be like saying your QB had a strong arm due to his bench stats at the Combine. Obviously, you don't draft a QB based on him benching 225 pounds in shorts in a gym. There is more to a strong passing arm than a bench press stat. I don't know... the Combine drills seem limited in usefulness to me. Game film of these guys showcasing functional strength (in real games against real opponents) means infinitely more than doing some drills in a gym in shorts.
