Caught off guard - imagine this blindside

JABF
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Caught off guard - imagine this blindside Jan 14, 2024 20:24:11 GMT -6 butkus3595 likes this

Post by JABF on Jan 14, 2024 20:24:11 GMT -6

Jan 14, 2024 20:20:04 GMT -6 motm said:

Jan 14, 2024 20:05:03 GMT -6 JABF said:

You mention two Hall of Fame QBs there who BOTH played for Hall of Fame coaches with some Hall of Fame offense players around them. Do you honestly believe the Bears situation equates to that? Mahomes had about the sweetest landing any QB could have transitioning to the NFL. Tom Brady & Bill Belichick. Patrick Mahomes & Andy Reid. LOLOLOL, how on earth do you equate that with what Fields came into here - a hellish situation by anyone's measure. If you can't see this I just don't know what to tell you.

Bill Belichick is a great coach but one thing his era without Brady has shown us is that he needed Brady to run that offense. He would spend a lot of his time keeping his defense legit. Top 5 and give Brady no name WR's to throw the ball too.

When Brady left. Brady has 2 great years with the Bucs. Wins a Super Bowl as well while BB record has got to one of its worst in history. Forcing him to resign.

Andy Reid before Mahomes was a big chock artist. Something Mahomes helps keep in place with his skill set. Reid spot wasn't as great as it was now with the likes of Alex Smith and etc... He built a super team for him and still couldn't get far. Mahomes is just that good.

Elite QBs are a HUGE difference maker. Chiefs are going to win a few more Super Bowls just on Mahomes alone. May not get to Bradys number but I see 4 Super Bowl rings in his future.

Allen and Burrow having rings as well. Even sadly to say Love who threw for 4k yards. They have that game changing ability as a passer that can win games for you.

LOL, stop it. You are moving goal posts at an alarming rate here. There is no comparison between these situations. You mention two Hall of Fame QBs, who BOTH played for Hall of Fame coaches with some Hall of Fame offense players around them. Tom Brady & Bill Belichick. Patrick Mahomes & Andy Reid. Justin Fields?

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mpbears68
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Caught off guard - imagine this blindside Jan 14, 2024 20:26:24 GMT -6 AlexM and bears40 like this

Post by mpbears68 on Jan 14, 2024 20:26:24 GMT -6

Jan 14, 2024 19:33:14 GMT -6 JABF said:

Jan 14, 2024 16:41:24 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

I've been screaming this since August--the key question is: What is Fields ceiling?

If he had "better" around him, what would his ceiling be? No one, I mean NO ONE, has "perfect". If he needs perfect, then he isn't the guy.

I am not disagreeing with that. But in fairness I don't believe Fields was given "enough" talent to reach his ceiling. And I totally get it that some people can perform better with less talent than others. The question (I think) regarding Fields is can he reach his ceiling with a better OL, WRs and a good coach? That's not the same as perfect but rather "good" coaching and supporting talent. Good. And I know all of this is subjective and we won't all agree on this - it is THE hot button topic for Bears fans. But a lot of the fans believe Fields' ceiling is significantly higher than what we have seen - if - he has what this draft and FA - and coaching hire can provide him in 2024.

I should have worded it better. I don't mean reaching his ceiling. I mean displaying his ceiling.

Jordan Love certainly hasn't reached his ceiling. Same with Lawrence and Stroud, etc. I'd bet elite QBs don't reach their ceilings until 5+ seasons under their belts. Heck, Mahomes even may even have a little room for growth left.

I'll rephrase--based on what we have seen thus far, is Fields future ceiling high enough for you?

For me it is not. I have not seen enough to lead me to believe that he can be an elite or near-elite QB. Maybe he can reach mid-tier, Cutler-like status in time but is that good enough? Not for me. I want a QB that, when he gets the ball in the 4th Q in a tight game, you know he's gonna find a way to win the game.

Fields is the opposite of that. His best stretches tend to come early in the game when they're running scripted plays. His 4th Q stats, when most games are decided, are abysmal. He has a rating of like 50 in the last 8 minutes of one-score-games. Here's the QBs Fields has beaten the last 2 seasons:

Trey Lance
Davis Mills
Mac Jones
Sam Howell
Brian Hoyer
Bryce Young
Josh Dobbs
Jared Goff
Kyler Murray
Taylor Heneicke

Only 2 of those guys are proper NFL starters. The rest are all scrubs and garbage backups.

Fields has had 3 years and 40 freakin games for crying out loud. And we still haven't seen enough.

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Last Edit: Jan 14, 2024 22:55:18 GMT -6 by mpbears68

butkus3595
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Caught off guard - imagine this blindside Jan 14, 2024 20:26:57 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jan 14, 2024 20:26:57 GMT -6

Jan 14, 2024 8:12:39 GMT -6 GrizzlyBear said:

Jan 13, 2024 20:58:35 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

And of course MOTM, the broken record, ignores Love has a better team and coach calling plays.

Love has definitely a better coach, I'll give you that.

But I wouldn't necessarily say that GB is a better team. I'd argue that, at least in 2023, we have better receivers and certainly better TEs. And despite having a crappy OL, we had the second best running game (rushing yds per game). And the defense wasn't too bad, either.

Once again, people are trying to make so many excuses for Fields instead of admitting that he's just not special. The way he's playing after three seasons was not worth the 11th pick overall. Sorry.

We don't have better receivers, its not even close. We have ONE better receiver and ONE better tight end. The depth of their group overall is MUCH better than ours. Their 5th receiver had 250 yards receiving. Mooney, our second, had 400. I'd say you're not admitting that this team still needs to add A LOT of offensive talent...for any QB to be successful. Its not an excuse, its an absolute FACT.

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butkus3595
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Caught off guard - imagine this blindside Jan 14, 2024 20:30:45 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jan 14, 2024 20:30:45 GMT -6

Jan 14, 2024 16:22:54 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Jan 13, 2024 20:58:35 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

And of course MOTM, the broken record, ignores Love has a better team and coach calling plays.

Is it 60% better? Cuz that's the difference in passing yards.

MLF is a really good HC I totally agree but Love's receivers are mostly rookies. Come on, this is so overblown.

I can't recall how many times I've said this...but its more than 60%. We have ONE better receiver and ONE better tight end(and thats right now...their TWO tight ends who combined for 700 yards receiving are both rookies). After that every single one of their pass catchers is better than ours! Their FIFTH RECEIVER had 250 yards. Our number 2 had 400. Let that sink in.

If you think its overblown you don't want to face the truth. Talent matters. Play calling matters.

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butkus3595
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Caught off guard - imagine this blindside Jan 14, 2024 20:40:16 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jan 14, 2024 20:40:16 GMT -6

Jan 14, 2024 16:41:24 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Jan 14, 2024 13:33:54 GMT -6 davidl said:

Two things can be true here:
1. Fields development has been hindered by the supporting cast and poor coaching.
2. Fields has some inherent limitations as a player independent from #1 above.

Fields Contributions to the offense and to this team extend well beyond how many passing yards he throws. But even guys like motm and MP should consider that his passing yards will increase with the addition of Harrison, a center, and a competent OC.

With those additions, I’m betting the Bears can be Super Bowl ready in 2025. That’s all I care about —seize the moment! If somebody sees Williams as a generational talent, I can see how they prefer that direction.

I've been screaming this since August--the key question is: What is Fields ceiling?

If he had "better" around him, what would his ceiling be? No one, I mean NO ONE, has "perfect". If he needs perfect, then he isn't the guy.

What empirical evidence do you have that leads you to believe Fields has an elite or near-elite ceiling as a passer? He's had very few impressive games. He's only thrown for 300+ yards once. He's only thrown for 250+ a couple times. Likewise, he's only thrown for 3+ TDs a handful of times. His average, typical stat line is roughly 180 yards & 1 TD.

This is where I am gonna hear all about the running element, right? Except that doesn't win games consistently and teams have adjusted to take away his 60 yard TD runs (not to mention the injury risk involved). Consider Fields elusiveness and running ability to be the cherry on top of the sundae.

What tells you the sundae is so special? I haven't seen it.

PS: Mahomes hasn't had the compliment of support this season that he has had in the past. Its been largely Kelce and that's about it. Yet he still just won a playoff game decisively. That's what a high-ceiling QB gives you. That's the difference between a QB "you can win with" and a QB that "win because of".

Mahomes was great...but that Miami defense made more business decisions than I've ever seen a team make in my life! At one point one of their linebackers tried to two hand touch Mahomes down when he ran with the ball. There was no prayer Miami was winning that game in that cold. None.

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JABF
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Caught off guard - imagine this blindside Jan 14, 2024 21:08:00 GMT -6 shark86 likes this

Post by JABF on Jan 14, 2024 21:08:00 GMT -6

Jan 14, 2024 20:26:24 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Jan 14, 2024 19:33:14 GMT -6 JABF said:

I am not disagreeing with that. But in fairness I don't believe Fields was given "enough" talent to reach his ceiling. And I totally get it that some people can perform better with less talent than others. The question (I think) regarding Fields is can he reach his ceiling with a better OL, WRs and a good coach? That's not the same as perfect but rather "good" coaching and supporting talent. Good. And I know all of this is subjective and we won't all agree on this - it is THE hot button topic for Bears fans. But a lot of the fans believe Fields' ceiling is significantly higher than what we have seen - if - he has what this draft and FA - and coaching hire can provide him in 2024.

I should have worded it better. I don't mean reaching his ceiling. I mean displaying his ceiling.

Jordan Love certainly hasn't reached his ceiling. Same with Lawrence and Stroud, etc. I'd bet elite QBs don't reach their ceilings until 5+ seasons under their belts. Heck, Mahomes even may even have a little room for growth left.

I'll rephrase--based on what we have seen thus far, is Fields future ceiling high enough for you?

For me it is not. I have not seen enough to lead me to believe that he can be an elite or near-elite QB. Maybe he can reach mid-tier, Cutler-like status in time but is that good enough? Not for me. I want a QB that, when he gets the ball in the 4th Q in a tight game, you know he's gonna find a way to win the game.

Fields is the opposite of that. His best stretches tend to come early in the game when they're running scripted plays. His 4th Q stats, when most games are decided, are abysmal. He has a rating of like 50 in the last 8 minutes of one-score-games. Here's the QBs Fields has beaten the last 2 seasons:

Trey Lance
Davis Mills
Mac Jones
Sam Howell
Brian Hoyer
Bryce Young
Josh Dobbs
Jared Goff
Kyler Murray
Taylor Heneicke

Only 2 of those guys are proper NFL starters. The rest are all scrubs and backups.

Fields has had 3 years and 40 freakin games for crying out loud. And we still haven't seen enough.

"I'll rephrase--based on what we have seen thus far, is Fields future ceiling high enough for you?"

Yes, but I can certainly see how it isn't seen that way with others. And I may be wrong. I'm just a fan so it's not like I know anything. And maybe it will be better for Fields to let him have a fresh start on a new team. I won't have a fit if the Bears choose to draft a QB. But I do believe the team needs to do the same thing upgrading the offense - no matter what path forward they take.

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Caught off guard - imagine this blindside

Post by JABF on Jan 14, 2024 20:24:11 GMT -6

Post by mpbears68 on Jan 14, 2024 20:26:24 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jan 14, 2024 20:26:57 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jan 14, 2024 20:30:45 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jan 14, 2024 20:40:16 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Jan 14, 2024 21:08:00 GMT -6