Doozy of a Weiderer thread

riczaj01
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Doozy of a Weiderer thread Sept 22, 2023 18:07:05 GMT -6

Post by riczaj01 on Sept 22, 2023 18:07:05 GMT -6

Sept 22, 2023 17:51:06 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Sept 22, 2023 14:37:43 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Again until all this counts towards wins, and specifically playoff wins, the point stands. QB's who's special is running don't matter. Didn't matter for Vick, didn't matter for Cunningham or Cam. Those 3 didn't win in the playoffs more then they lost. Steve Young did the passing/rushing combo to a SB, once, was sub .500 outside that year. And that SB year he ran less than the years that preceded it.

Ok...now list all the QB's who do nothing but pass. Marino was 8-10 in the playoffs with NO SUPERBOWL WINS ...he was one of the most prolific passers in the game. Philip Rivers...5-7 in the playoffs. Matt Ryan...4-6 in the playoffs. Matt Stafford...0-3 in the playoffs before he finally landed on a really good team with a good defense! We can do this forever.

Speaking of Vick and guys with no receivers...his best receiver in Atlanta was his tight end too! Alge Crumpler! He didn't get decent receivers until he went to Philly...unfortunately by then he was 30 years and coming off a two year jail stint.

The bottom line is that you CAN win with a QB that runs. Roger Staubach was considered a running QB for his time...correct me if I'm wrong...but he won...right? John Elway was a runner...he won...right? Russel Wilson was a running QB...he won...right? Cam didn't win a Super Bowl because he chose for a moment to NOT be a runner and recover a fumble lol...plus that Denver D was crazy! But he made it there. Hell...Steve Young didn't become a starter until he was 30 years old. Had he not he surely would have ran for more than the 4200 yards he ran for, and he won...he was 8-6 in the playoffs.

I can show you examples of QB's that throw and win in the playoffs. Staubach; a guy played in the 70's and never ran for more than 500 yards? Elway was a thrower first and foremost. He was not running for 500, and no where near 1k. Both guys were passing primarily. In reality those are at best stretches to call them running QB's. Their first second and third jobs were throwing, and ran when it was needed.

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butkus3595
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Doozy of a Weiderer thread Sept 22, 2023 18:22:11 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Sept 22, 2023 18:22:11 GMT -6

Sept 22, 2023 18:07:05 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Sept 22, 2023 17:51:06 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Ok...now list all the QB's who do nothing but pass. Marino was 8-10 in the playoffs with NO SUPERBOWL WINS ...he was one of the most prolific passers in the game. Philip Rivers...5-7 in the playoffs. Matt Ryan...4-6 in the playoffs. Matt Stafford...0-3 in the playoffs before he finally landed on a really good team with a good defense! We can do this forever.

Speaking of Vick and guys with no receivers...his best receiver in Atlanta was his tight end too! Alge Crumpler! He didn't get decent receivers until he went to Philly...unfortunately by then he was 30 years and coming off a two year jail stint.

The bottom line is that you CAN win with a QB that runs. Roger Staubach was considered a running QB for his time...correct me if I'm wrong...but he won...right? John Elway was a runner...he won...right? Russel Wilson was a running QB...he won...right? Cam didn't win a Super Bowl because he chose for a moment to NOT be a runner and recover a fumble lol...plus that Denver D was crazy! But he made it there. Hell...Steve Young didn't become a starter until he was 30 years old. Had he not he surely would have ran for more than the 4200 yards he ran for, and he won...he was 8-6 in the playoffs.

I can show you examples of QB's that throw and win in the playoffs. Staubach; a guy played in the 70's and never ran for more than 500 yards? Elway was a thrower first and foremost. He was not running for 500, and no where near 1k. Both guys were passing primarily. In reality those are at best stretches to call them running QB's. Their first second and third jobs were throwing, and ran when it was needed.

Ok...so then we're talking historically about 3 friggen guys. This is the sample you're using to make the definitive statement that that type of QB can't win. Yeah...thats not gonna fly. All those guys I listed were routinely top 10 in rushing yards for QB's and I believe staubach was 2nd in the league when he won a super bowl one year. Staubach also never threw for over 2800 yards until he was 38, so to say he wasn't a runner cause he didn't run for over 500 yards doesn't take into account the differences in the game. By that metric he wasn't much of a passer either...right? He wasn't called "Roger the Dodger" for nothin.

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Doozy of a Weiderer thread Sept 22, 2023 18:33:29 GMT -6 AlexM, bears40, and 1 more like this

Post by shark86 on Sept 22, 2023 18:33:29 GMT -6

Sept 22, 2023 15:52:00 GMT -6 dachuckster said:

Sept 22, 2023 13:36:12 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Perhaps if NFL coaches got their heads out of their asses and incorporated more college schemes, they'd find they could be successful with more of the players coming into the league.

There are teams in the NFL that have incorporated RPO concepts in their offensive schemes (Dolphins, Chiefs, Bills, Eagles, etc). And you can be successful doing it. But IMO it requires one big part. The person who is designing the offense needs to be extremely knowledgeable in all things offensive football, intelligent and creative.

Who is all that on the Bears coaching staff?

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Doozy of a Weiderer thread Sept 22, 2023 21:23:21 GMT -6 butkus3595 likes this

Post by davidl on Sept 22, 2023 21:23:21 GMT -6

Sept 22, 2023 18:22:11 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Sept 22, 2023 18:07:05 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

I can show you examples of QB's that throw and win in the playoffs. Staubach; a guy played in the 70's and never ran for more than 500 yards? Elway was a thrower first and foremost. He was not running for 500, and no where near 1k. Both guys were passing primarily. In reality those are at best stretches to call them running QB's. Their first second and third jobs were throwing, and ran when it was needed.

Ok...so then we're talking historically about 3 friggen guys. This is the sample you're using to make the definitive statement that that type of QB can't win. Yeah...thats not gonna fly. All those guys I listed were routinely top 10 in rushing yards for QB's and I believe staubach was 2nd in the league when he won a super bowl one year. Staubach also never threw for over 2800 yards until he was 38, so to say he wasn't a runner cause he didn't run for over 500 yards doesn't take into account the differences in the game. By that metric he wasn't much of a passer either...right? He wasn't called "Roger the Dodger" for nothin.

Russell Wilson won a Super Bowl and was one dumb infamous play short of winning two. Didn’t Fran Tarkenton come close? I can’t remember.

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riczaj01
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Doozy of a Weiderer thread Sept 23, 2023 4:57:15 GMT -6

Post by riczaj01 on Sept 23, 2023 4:57:15 GMT -6

Sept 22, 2023 18:22:11 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Sept 22, 2023 18:07:05 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

I can show you examples of QB's that throw and win in the playoffs. Staubach; a guy played in the 70's and never ran for more than 500 yards? Elway was a thrower first and foremost. He was not running for 500, and no where near 1k. Both guys were passing primarily. In reality those are at best stretches to call them running QB's. Their first second and third jobs were throwing, and ran when it was needed.

Ok...so then we're talking historically about 3 friggen guys. This is the sample you're using to make the definitive statement that that type of QB can't win. Yeah...thats not gonna fly. All those guys I listed were routinely top 10 in rushing yards for QB's and I believe staubach was 2nd in the league when he won a super bowl one year. Staubach also never threw for over 2800 yards until he was 38, so to say he wasn't a runner cause he didn't run for over 500 yards doesn't take into account the differences in the game. By that metric he wasn't much of a passer either...right? He wasn't called "Roger the Dodger" for nothin.

How many QB's have consistently ran for over 500 yards? It's not my fault that this is rare, nor is it my fault that it never equates into playoff wins. Don't get huffy w/me for stating facts. Don't get mad that just b/c you want it to be viable it's not. IF Jackson/Fields somehow turn this into a viable option then that changes the facts; good for them, but I wouldn't bank on it, I wouldn't put money on them to do it b/c history says otherwise.

To this point, QB's that run like Jackson, Fields, Vick and Cunningham do NOT win in the playoffs. That is factually true. The closest thing you can find is Steve Young, who won a SB, in a year he ran less then he normally did; and even than it was never 500+ yards rushing, although closer to it than the others. Point stands, the QB's job is to throw the ball, if they are running they aren't doing that, and in the playoffs when it's the best of the best teams, those qb's cannot advance their teams.

To the point, if these two want their legs to be part of the plan, it needs to be around 500ish yards(w/the additional game added in) sure go for it, plan on those guys running for a 2-3 first downs a game, but if the team is planning on 600-1k yards come playoff time bank it fails.

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Last Edit: Sept 23, 2023 5:01:53 GMT -6 by riczaj01

butkus3595
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Doozy of a Weiderer thread Sept 23, 2023 7:52:29 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Sept 23, 2023 7:52:29 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2023 4:57:15 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Sept 22, 2023 18:22:11 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Ok...so then we're talking historically about 3 friggen guys. This is the sample you're using to make the definitive statement that that type of QB can't win. Yeah...thats not gonna fly. All those guys I listed were routinely top 10 in rushing yards for QB's and I believe staubach was 2nd in the league when he won a super bowl one year. Staubach also never threw for over 2800 yards until he was 38, so to say he wasn't a runner cause he didn't run for over 500 yards doesn't take into account the differences in the game. By that metric he wasn't much of a passer either...right? He wasn't called "Roger the Dodger" for nothin.

How many QB's have consistently ran for over 500 yards? It's not my fault that this is rare, nor is it my fault that it never equates into playoff wins. Don't get huffy w/me for stating facts. Don't get mad that just b/c you want it to be viable it's not. IF Jackson/Fields somehow turn this into a viable option then that changes the facts; good for them, but I wouldn't bank on it, I wouldn't put money on them to do it b/c history says otherwise.

To this point, QB's that run like Jackson, Fields, Vick and Cunningham do NOT win in the playoffs. That is factually true. The closest thing you can find is Steve Young, who won a SB, in a year he ran less then he normally did; and even than it was never 500+ yards rushing, although closer to it than the others. Point stands, the QB's job is to throw the ball, if they are running they aren't doing that, and in the playoffs when it's the best of the best teams, those qb's cannot advance their teams.

To the point, if these two want their legs to be part of the plan, it needs to be around 500ish yards(w/the additional game added in) sure go for it, plan on those guys running for a 2-3 first downs a game, but if the team is planning on 600-1k yards come playoff time bank it fails.

Not mad at all. Simply pointing out that you can't make any sort of definitive statement with the small sample you're working with. And as I've pointed out...it can win, and can win in the playoffs. I guess its just a mirage what Jalen Hurts did last season as a player who so far has routinely ran for 700+ yards a season. I guess Josh Allens success is a mirage even though he runs for 700+ yards a season. Like I said...it can be done...its being done by others.

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Doozy of a Weiderer thread Sept 23, 2023 8:20:30 GMT -6

Post by riczaj01 on Sept 23, 2023 8:20:30 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2023 7:52:29 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Sept 23, 2023 4:57:15 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

How many QB's have consistently ran for over 500 yards? It's not my fault that this is rare, nor is it my fault that it never equates into playoff wins. Don't get huffy w/me for stating facts. Don't get mad that just b/c you want it to be viable it's not. IF Jackson/Fields somehow turn this into a viable option then that changes the facts; good for them, but I wouldn't bank on it, I wouldn't put money on them to do it b/c history says otherwise.

To this point, QB's that run like Jackson, Fields, Vick and Cunningham do NOT win in the playoffs. That is factually true. The closest thing you can find is Steve Young, who won a SB, in a year he ran less then he normally did; and even than it was never 500+ yards rushing, although closer to it than the others. Point stands, the QB's job is to throw the ball, if they are running they aren't doing that, and in the playoffs when it's the best of the best teams, those qb's cannot advance their teams.

To the point, if these two want their legs to be part of the plan, it needs to be around 500ish yards(w/the additional game added in) sure go for it, plan on those guys running for a 2-3 first downs a game, but if the team is planning on 600-1k yards come playoff time bank it fails.

Not mad at all. Simply pointing out that you can't make any sort of definitive statement with the small sample you're working with. And as I've pointed out...it can win, and can win in the playoffs. I guess its just a mirage what Jalen Hurts did last season as a player who so far has routinely ran for 700+ yards a season. I guess Josh Allens success is a mirage even though he runs for 700+ yards a season. Like I said...it can be done...its being done by others.

It loses more then it wins in the playoffs. So your definitive is BS, where mine is factual. Until it happens, it cannot. Hurts is 2-2, that's .500 that's not winning that's breaking even. You go .500 in vegas and no one says you are winning, no one talks about the great teams/qb's that went .500 in the playoffs.

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butkus3595
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Doozy of a Weiderer thread Sept 23, 2023 18:29:42 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Sept 23, 2023 18:29:42 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2023 8:20:30 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Sept 23, 2023 7:52:29 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Not mad at all. Simply pointing out that you can't make any sort of definitive statement with the small sample you're working with. And as I've pointed out...it can win, and can win in the playoffs. I guess its just a mirage what Jalen Hurts did last season as a player who so far has routinely ran for 700+ yards a season. I guess Josh Allens success is a mirage even though he runs for 700+ yards a season. Like I said...it can be done...its being done by others.

It loses more then it wins in the playoffs. So your definitive is BS, where mine is factual. Until it happens, it cannot. Hurts is 2-2, that's .500 that's not winning that's breaking even. You go .500 in vegas and no one says you are winning, no one talks about the great teams/qb's that went .500 in the playoffs.

1. I never made a definitive statement...I said it CAN be done. We can quibble over that if you want, but I don't see it the same.

2. Until something happens it can't happen? LOL...uh, no. It maybe HASN'T happened, but that doesn't mean it CANNOT happen. We'll ignore the point thats been made where it HAS happened(to your standards), with Russel Wilson winning a Super Bowl. So much for BS eh?

3. Hurts played in the Super Bowl last year...right? Maybe I watched a different game than everyone else last year where the Eagles were not in the Super Bowl. Don't you have to win games to get there? So 1 of his losses in the playoffs was in the SUPER BOWL, where as a 2nd year starter, he lost by 3 points despite throwing for over 300 yards and a TD and running for 70 yards and 3 TD's. His only other loss in the post season was in his second season, first as a starter, where he lost to eventual Super Bowl champs Tampa Bay.

4. Marino was 8-10 in the playoffs...nobody talks about him?

5. You know what wins more than it loses in the playoffs? Complete teams. There's a definitive statement that is 100% fact.

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Doozy of a Weiderer thread Sept 23, 2023 21:22:29 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Sept 23, 2023 21:22:29 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2023 18:29:42 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Sept 23, 2023 8:20:30 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

It loses more then it wins in the playoffs. So your definitive is BS, where mine is factual. Until it happens, it cannot. Hurts is 2-2, that's .500 that's not winning that's breaking even. You go .500 in vegas and no one says you are winning, no one talks about the great teams/qb's that went .500 in the playoffs.

1. I never made a definitive statement...I said it CAN be done. We can quibble over that if you want, but I don't see it the same.

2. Until something happens it can't happen? LOL...uh, no. It maybe HASN'T happened, but that doesn't mean it CANNOT happen. We'll ignore the point thats been made where it HAS happened(to your standards), with Russel Wilson winning a Super Bowl. So much for BS eh?

3. Hurts played in the Super Bowl last year...right? Maybe I watched a different game than everyone else last year where the Eagles were not in the Super Bowl. Don't you have to win games to get there? So 1 of his losses in the playoffs was in the SUPER BOWL, where as a 2nd year starter, he lost by 3 points despite throwing for over 300 yards and a TD and running for 70 yards and 3 TD's. His only other loss in the post season was in his second season, first as a starter, where he lost to eventual Super Bowl champs Tampa Bay.

4. Marino was 8-10 in the playoffs...nobody talks about him?

5. You know what wins more than it loses in the playoffs? Complete teams. There's a definitive statement that is 100% fact.

If Eagles have all their star players healthy going into the playoffs, they are my pick to win Super Bowl.

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