Ryan Poles not safe

butkus3595
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Ryan Poles not safe Nov 27, 2023 11:04:35 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Nov 27, 2023 11:04:35 GMT -6

Nov 26, 2023 23:11:08 GMT -6 motm said:

Nov 26, 2023 20:41:35 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

I actually answered the original question, and its YOU who is moving the goal posts...as usual.

Welp you did and didn't. When you answered it, I debunked you and you did an immature responds. As in moving goal post.

I'm sure i'll get a lame respond that doesn't answer the original respond I sent you. Just don't leave like ric did...

Ummmm....I did. See below:

"Running back is good, our corners are good, our linebackers are good, I'd even argue our safeties are fine, health is the only issue there. I could make arguments for other groups, but those are more open for opinion.

Also, you're purposely trying to shape the argument around "position GROUPS" and not positions on an individual basis. You know if you did that your argument fails even more miserably than its failing now."

That was my response. You never debunked any of that. You actually essentially AGREED with me! You then went on with some babble about how individuals don't matter, that groups make the difference, of course ignoring the fact that groups are made up of INDIVIDUAL POSITION GROUPS!!! The offensive line is made up of 3 different groups, the defensive line is made up of 2 different groups, the secondary is made up of two different groups...etc, etc, etc.

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davidl
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Ryan Poles not safe Nov 27, 2023 11:14:13 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 27, 2023 11:14:13 GMT -6

Nov 27, 2023 10:56:55 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Nov 26, 2023 22:25:26 GMT -6 davidl said:

You just changed the subject. The subject is/was which groups are set and which still need more replacements.

You said LB, CB, S are good. So you must think the DL is why Bears rank 29th on defense. The back-7 not as solid as you believe. Yes, the DL is a bigger problem, but nobody is arguing about that.

I did not change the subject one bit.

So you think our linebackers need more replacements. The starting 3 aren't good enough? Do I need to remind you that one of them actually started on a team that played in the Super Bowl last year, and that another one was a starter and multiple time Pro Bowler on a perennial play off team who's defenses ranked as follows:

2018: 18th in points, 2nd in yards

2019: 2nd in points, 3rd in yards

2020: 16th in points, 14th in yards

2021: 1st in points, 1st in yards...best defense in the league.

2022: 2nd in points, 6th in yards

Yeah...I'd say our friggen linebacker corp is more than set, and are a reason this defense is top 5 against the run!

As for our secondary...the only one who's played in every game has been Tyrique. Everyone else has missed major portions of the season, which was why I said "aside from injury" our secondary isn't really an issue. Injury IS a concern though. However, dealing with just the statement made on talent, or at least thats how I interpreted it...the secondary was seen as a huge strength going into the season. I don't care how good a secondary is though if the d-line cannot produce a pass rush. You could have Prime Time and Peanut out there in their primes and they wouldn't be able to cover the opposing receivers with the pass rush this d-line was generating prior to acquiring Sweat, which is BIG part of the reason this team is as bad as it is against the pass. Thats a fact, and if you can't admit that, it says a lot about your position.

Edmunds and Stevenson both have PFF grades around 52, which is pathetic. I don’t care how they graded on other teams or in college. I am talking about what they are doing this year with the Bears. Maybe Edmunds can get his act together next year, but I believe we need a replacement for Stevenson. The excuse is that he is a rookie. Well, there ar 19 rookie CBs in the NFL this year, and he ranks 16th. He is out for the Vikings game, so Terell Smith will have a chance. Maybe he can be the replacement.

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Last Edit: Nov 27, 2023 11:15:15 GMT -6 by davidl

mpbears68
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Ryan Poles not safe Nov 27, 2023 11:51:24 GMT -6 AlexM, shark86, and 1 more like this

Post by mpbears68 on Nov 27, 2023 11:51:24 GMT -6

Nov 26, 2023 22:25:26 GMT -6 davidl said:

Nov 26, 2023 20:54:05 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

The back 7 is the least of the problems on this team and you know it. This might be one of the dumbest arguments you two have tried to craft here.

You just changed the subject. The subject is/was which groups are set and which still need more replacements.

You said LB, CB, S are good. So you must think the DL is why Bears rank 29th on defense. The back-7 not as solid as you believe. Yes, the DL is a bigger problem, but nobody is arguing about that.

I would argue that LB and CB are good (re-signing JJ is important here). As I predicted and as occurred similarly with Gordon last year, Stevenson had a rough start getting picked on as a rookie but has been steadily improving. He's coming off his best game as a pro last week against a very good passing offense.

Safety isn't as set. Eddie is done and will be gone so he needs replacement. Brisker is a solid player but injury-prone.

NT is good with Billings. He's a solid starter. Dexter and Pickens have both started looking better lately but still are unproven. Clearly need another DE and probably another DT unless on of the rooks takes a big step.

One more thing: these coaches suck and need replacement. Flus' soft cover-2 scheme is outdated, the league has long since adjusted, and it can't work without a stud DT and stud rangy MLB. Different coaching is a must for next year.

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butkus3595
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Ryan Poles not safe Nov 27, 2023 12:55:53 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Nov 27, 2023 12:55:53 GMT -6

Nov 27, 2023 11:14:13 GMT -6 davidl said:

Nov 27, 2023 10:56:55 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

I did not change the subject one bit.

So you think our linebackers need more replacements. The starting 3 aren't good enough? Do I need to remind you that one of them actually started on a team that played in the Super Bowl last year, and that another one was a starter and multiple time Pro Bowler on a perennial play off team who's defenses ranked as follows:

2018: 18th in points, 2nd in yards

2019: 2nd in points, 3rd in yards

2020: 16th in points, 14th in yards

2021: 1st in points, 1st in yards...best defense in the league.

2022: 2nd in points, 6th in yards

Yeah...I'd say our friggen linebacker corp is more than set, and are a reason this defense is top 5 against the run!

As for our secondary...the only one who's played in every game has been Tyrique. Everyone else has missed major portions of the season, which was why I said "aside from injury" our secondary isn't really an issue. Injury IS a concern though. However, dealing with just the statement made on talent, or at least thats how I interpreted it...the secondary was seen as a huge strength going into the season. I don't care how good a secondary is though if the d-line cannot produce a pass rush. You could have Prime Time and Peanut out there in their primes and they wouldn't be able to cover the opposing receivers with the pass rush this d-line was generating prior to acquiring Sweat, which is BIG part of the reason this team is as bad as it is against the pass. Thats a fact, and if you can't admit that, it says a lot about your position.

Edmunds and Stevenson both have PFF grades around 52, which is pathetic. I don’t care how they graded on other teams or in college. I am talking about what they are doing this year with the Bears. Maybe Edmunds can get his act together next year, but I believe we need a replacement for Stevenson. The excuse is that he is a rookie. Well, there ar 19 rookie CBs in the NFL this year, and he ranks 16th. He is out for the Vikings game, so Terell Smith will have a chance. Maybe he can be the replacement.

I don't really care about PFF grades...so theres that. And a players rookie year isn't the best predictor of future success. Even your almighty PFF agrees with that! The second year is more predictive of future success. So to write Stevenson off now is foolish.

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davidl
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Ryan Poles not safe Nov 27, 2023 13:04:39 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 27, 2023 13:04:39 GMT -6

Nov 27, 2023 11:51:24 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Nov 26, 2023 22:25:26 GMT -6 davidl said:

You just changed the subject. The subject is/was which groups are set and which still need more replacements.

You said LB, CB, S are good. So you must think the DL is why Bears rank 29th on defense. The back-7 not as solid as you believe. Yes, the DL is a bigger problem, but nobody is arguing about that.

I would argue that LB and CB are good (re-signing JJ is important here). As I predicted and as occurred similarly with Gordon last year, Stevenson had a rough start getting picked on as a rookie but has been steadily improving. He's coming off his best game as a pro last week against a very good passing offense.

Safety isn't as set. Eddie is done and will be gone so he needs replacement. Brisker is a solid player but injury-prone.

NT is good with Billings. He's a solid starter. Dexter and Pickens have both started looking better lately but still are unproven. Clearly need another DE and probably another DT unless on of the rooks takes a big step.

One more thing: these coaches suck and need replacement. Flus' soft cover-2 scheme is outdated, the league has long since adjusted, and it can't work without a stud DT and stud rangy MLB. Different coaching is a must for next year.

Billings has been a big upgrade for our run defense. Brisker and Jackson rarely seen together. It seems one or the other or both are injured half the time.

LB group is only NFL average. A LONG way from Urlacher/Briggs — maybe I am spoiled. LOL

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davidl
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Ryan Poles not safe Nov 27, 2023 13:18:13 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 27, 2023 13:18:13 GMT -6

Nov 27, 2023 12:55:53 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Nov 27, 2023 11:14:13 GMT -6 davidl said:

Edmunds and Stevenson both have PFF grades around 52, which is pathetic. I don’t care how they graded on other teams or in college. I am talking about what they are doing this year with the Bears. Maybe Edmunds can get his act together next year, but I believe we need a replacement for Stevenson. The excuse is that he is a rookie. Well, there ar 19 rookie CBs in the NFL this year, and he ranks 16th. He is out for the Vikings game, so Terell Smith will have a chance. Maybe he can be the replacement.

I don't really care about PFF grades...so theres that. And a players rookie year isn't the best predictor of future success. Even your almighty PFF agrees with that! The second year is more predictive of future success. So to write Stevenson off now is foolish.

It is possible that Stevenson will be better next year, but ranking 16/19 among rookie CBs is not encouraging— to say the least. I want to add a CB as insurance. It is foolish to gamble on him as starting CB in 2024 with no alternative. I’m hoping for a good performance from T. Smith tonight.

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mpbears68
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Ryan Poles not safe Nov 27, 2023 14:34:06 GMT -6 butkus3595 likes this

Post by mpbears68 on Nov 27, 2023 14:34:06 GMT -6

Nov 27, 2023 11:14:13 GMT -6 davidl said:

Nov 27, 2023 10:56:55 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

I did not change the subject one bit.

So you think our linebackers need more replacements. The starting 3 aren't good enough? Do I need to remind you that one of them actually started on a team that played in the Super Bowl last year, and that another one was a starter and multiple time Pro Bowler on a perennial play off team who's defenses ranked as follows:

2018: 18th in points, 2nd in yards

2019: 2nd in points, 3rd in yards

2020: 16th in points, 14th in yards

2021: 1st in points, 1st in yards...best defense in the league.

2022: 2nd in points, 6th in yards

Yeah...I'd say our friggen linebacker corp is more than set, and are a reason this defense is top 5 against the run!

As for our secondary...the only one who's played in every game has been Tyrique. Everyone else has missed major portions of the season, which was why I said "aside from injury" our secondary isn't really an issue. Injury IS a concern though. However, dealing with just the statement made on talent, or at least thats how I interpreted it...the secondary was seen as a huge strength going into the season. I don't care how good a secondary is though if the d-line cannot produce a pass rush. You could have Prime Time and Peanut out there in their primes and they wouldn't be able to cover the opposing receivers with the pass rush this d-line was generating prior to acquiring Sweat, which is BIG part of the reason this team is as bad as it is against the pass. Thats a fact, and if you can't admit that, it says a lot about your position.

Edmunds and Stevenson both have PFF grades around 52, which is pathetic. I don’t care how they graded on other teams or in college. I am talking about what they are doing this year with the Bears. Maybe Edmunds can get his act together next year, but I believe we need a replacement for Stevenson. The excuse is that he is a rookie. Well, there ar 19 rookie CBs in the NFL this year, and he ranks 16th. He is out for the Vikings game, so Terell Smith will have a chance. Maybe he can be the replacement.

You are a total slave to these "grades" as if they are gospel. They aren't. Even if you buy the methodology, you are missing the big picture here.

Rookie CBs get picked on. They get picked on a lot when the CB opposite them is considered one of the better man cover guys in the game (JJ). They get picked on a TON when there's zero pass rush and their DC sucks at his job.

Kyler Gordon struggled mightily in the first half of last season too. And that was when the D still had Roquan and your buddy, old man Quinn. He started coming on late in the year just like TS is doing.

Man, could you give it a rest?

You said yourself that 2025 is your goal so do you mind if players take a year or so to develop and gain experience?

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davidl
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Ryan Poles not safe Nov 27, 2023 16:58:15 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 27, 2023 16:58:15 GMT -6

Nov 27, 2023 14:34:06 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Nov 27, 2023 11:14:13 GMT -6 davidl said:

Edmunds and Stevenson both have PFF grades around 52, which is pathetic. I don’t care how they graded on other teams or in college. I am talking about what they are doing this year with the Bears. Maybe Edmunds can get his act together next year, but I believe we need a replacement for Stevenson. The excuse is that he is a rookie. Well, there ar 19 rookie CBs in the NFL this year, and he ranks 16th. He is out for the Vikings game, so Terell Smith will have a chance. Maybe he can be the replacement.

You are a total slave to these "grades" as if they are gospel. They aren't. Even if you buy the methodology, you are missing the big picture here.

Rookie CBs get picked on. They get picked on a lot when the CB opposite them is considered one of the better man cover guys in the game (JJ). They get picked on a TON when there's zero pass rush and their DC sucks at his job.

Kyler Gordon struggled mightily in the first half of last season too. And that was when the D still had Roquan and your buddy, old man Quinn. He started coming on late in the year just like TS is doing.

Man, could you give it a rest?

You said yourself that 2025 is your goal so do you mind if players take a year or so to develop and gain experience?

I compare Stevenson to other rookie CB. As I said, he iis 16/19 among rookie CBs this year. You guys have nothing to say about that. Just repeat that he is a rookie. As a Seahawks fan, I saw Woolen as a rookie last year and Witherspoon this year. As rookies, WAY ahead of Stevenson. That is not to say he can't improve. I just say it is a concern until I see it happen.

I am not a "slave" to PFF grades. Like every human creation, they are subject to error. However, none of us score every snap on every player in the NFL. I mainly mention them to indicate that I am not alone in assessing these players. I reach my evaluations independently by WATCHING them play football.

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butkus3595
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Ryan Poles not safe Nov 27, 2023 18:52:24 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Nov 27, 2023 18:52:24 GMT -6

Nov 27, 2023 13:18:13 GMT -6 davidl said:

Nov 27, 2023 12:55:53 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

I don't really care about PFF grades...so theres that. And a players rookie year isn't the best predictor of future success. Even your almighty PFF agrees with that! The second year is more predictive of future success. So to write Stevenson off now is foolish.

It is possible that Stevenson will be better next year, but ranking 16/19 among rookie CBs is not encouraging— to say the least. I want to add a CB as insurance. It is foolish to gamble on him as starting CB in 2024 with no alternative. I’m hoping for a good performance from T. Smith tonight.

He's a second round pick...he's not getting tossed aside after one season. I would say Smith is insurance for both Stevenson, who will be fine and has been playing pretty damn well lately despite your assertions, as well as for JJ.

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butkus3595
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Ryan Poles not safe Nov 27, 2023 18:55:11 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Nov 27, 2023 18:55:11 GMT -6

Nov 27, 2023 16:58:15 GMT -6 davidl said:

Nov 27, 2023 14:34:06 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

You are a total slave to these "grades" as if they are gospel. They aren't. Even if you buy the methodology, you are missing the big picture here.

Rookie CBs get picked on. They get picked on a lot when the CB opposite them is considered one of the better man cover guys in the game (JJ). They get picked on a TON when there's zero pass rush and their DC sucks at his job.

Kyler Gordon struggled mightily in the first half of last season too. And that was when the D still had Roquan and your buddy, old man Quinn. He started coming on late in the year just like TS is doing.

Man, could you give it a rest?

You said yourself that 2025 is your goal so do you mind if players take a year or so to develop and gain experience?

I compare Stevenson to other rookie CB. As I said, he iis 16/19 among rookie CBs this year. You guys have nothing to say about that. Just repeat that he is a rookie. As a Seahawks fan, I saw Woolen as a rookie last year and Witherspoon this year. As rookies, WAY ahead of Stevenson. That is not to say he can't improve. I just say it is a concern until I see it happen.

I am not a "slave" to PFF grades. Like every human creation, they are subject to error. However, none of us score every snap on every player in the NFL. I mainly mention them to indicate that I am not alone in assessing these players. I reach my evaluations independently by WATCHING them play football.

Hows Woolen doing this year? Whats his PFF grade? I'd imagine he's one of the best in the league since he played so well as a rookie...right? Also, Witherspoon was a TOP 5 PICK!!!

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Post by butkus3595 on Nov 27, 2023 11:04:35 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 27, 2023 11:14:13 GMT -6

Post by mpbears68 on Nov 27, 2023 11:51:24 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Nov 27, 2023 12:55:53 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 27, 2023 13:04:39 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 27, 2023 13:18:13 GMT -6

Post by mpbears68 on Nov 27, 2023 14:34:06 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 27, 2023 16:58:15 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Nov 27, 2023 18:52:24 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Nov 27, 2023 18:55:11 GMT -6