And thats kind of my point. Shanny wasn't seen as very good until he got to Atlanta, where he had some pretty good talent to work with and that talent stayed remarkably healthy. Every coach has warts, talent does a great job of making them disappear for the most part.
As long as the coach is competent enough to put them in the right positions and knows how to call plays, yeah, I agree talent can mask a lot of incompetence. But if you look at Tucker, I honestly don't think he could have looked good with the Bears '85 defense. Those guys would not have been as dominant because they would not be as organized as Ryan had them. I keep going back to the Eagles dream team. Talent all by itself can't do it either. You need someone that can make it come together as work as a group, can get them where they can be effective, etc. That's why I think you need both. I honestly think that Pace will help us close the talent deficit this year. He can't do it all, but we should be better. I am really looking forward to a critical look to see what the team can do with it next year. Can they fix the injury situation? Is there even an injury situation or was it just all bad luck? Seems like too many at once to just be bad luck though. Can the coaches do a better job of countering other coaches adjustments.... Lots of things to look at. I really hope they come through.
EDIT: I do want to say though that at the SB playoff level, it is going to be hard to win it if you are looking at one group to hide the incompetence of others. Pretty much every one needs to be doing their job at a high level to win that. The competition is just too good.
And thats kind of my point. Shanny wasn't seen as very good until he got to Atlanta, where he had some pretty good talent to work with and that talent stayed remarkably healthy. Every coach has warts, talent does a great job of making them disappear for the most part.
As long as the coach is competent enough to put them in the right positions and knows how to call plays, yeah, I agree talent can mask a lot of incompetence. But if you look at Tucker, I honestly don't think he could have looked good with the Bears '85 defense. Those guys would not have been as dominant because they would not be as organized as Ryan had them. I keep going back to the Eagles dream team. Talent all by itself can't do it either. You need someone that can make it come together as work as a group, can get them where they can be effective, etc. That's why I think you need both. I honestly think that Pace will help us close the talent deficit this year. He can't do it all, but we should be better. I am really looking forward to a critical look to see what the team can do with it next year. Can they fix the injury situation? Is there even an injury situation or was it just all bad luck? Seems like too many at once to just be bad luck though. Can the coaches do a better job of countering other coaches adjustments.... Lots of things to look at. I really hope they come through.
Maybe...maybe not...thats an impossible scenario to find a definitive answer in. Views on Tucker aside, the guy was in a no win situation here. He was forced to run another guys scheme with players who hated his guts the minute he walked in the door anyway. I imagine it may have been similar here in the 80's had Ditka not been forced to keep Ryan on as DC.
As long as the coach is competent enough to put them in the right positions and knows how to call plays, yeah, I agree talent can mask a lot of incompetence. But if you look at Tucker, I honestly don't think he could have looked good with the Bears '85 defense. Those guys would not have been as dominant because they would not be as organized as Ryan had them. I keep going back to the Eagles dream team. Talent all by itself can't do it either. You need someone that can make it come together as work as a group, can get them where they can be effective, etc. That's why I think you need both. I honestly think that Pace will help us close the talent deficit this year. He can't do it all, but we should be better. I am really looking forward to a critical look to see what the team can do with it next year. Can they fix the injury situation? Is there even an injury situation or was it just all bad luck? Seems like too many at once to just be bad luck though. Can the coaches do a better job of countering other coaches adjustments.... Lots of things to look at. I really hope they come through.
EDIT: I do want to say though that at the SB playoff level, it is going to be hard to win it if you are looking at one group to hide the incompetence of others. Pretty much every one needs to be doing their job at a high level to win that. The competition is just too good.
I generally agree, except the Falcons have a defense well in the bottom third of the league, 27th in points allowed. They happen to have the #1 offense in the league though. They may not win the Super Bowl, but they got there on the backs of their offense.
As long as the coach is competent enough to put them in the right positions and knows how to call plays, yeah, I agree talent can mask a lot of incompetence. But if you look at Tucker, I honestly don't think he could have looked good with the Bears '85 defense. Those guys would not have been as dominant because they would not be as organized as Ryan had them. I keep going back to the Eagles dream team. Talent all by itself can't do it either. You need someone that can make it come together as work as a group, can get them where they can be effective, etc. That's why I think you need both. I honestly think that Pace will help us close the talent deficit this year. He can't do it all, but we should be better. I am really looking forward to a critical look to see what the team can do with it next year. Can they fix the injury situation? Is there even an injury situation or was it just all bad luck? Seems like too many at once to just be bad luck though. Can the coaches do a better job of countering other coaches adjustments.... Lots of things to look at. I really hope they come through.
Maybe...maybe not...thats an impossible scenario to find a definitive answer in. Views on Tucker aside, the guy was in a no win situation here. He was forced to run another guys scheme with players who hated his guts the minute he walked in the door anyway. I imagine it may have been similar here in the 80's had Ditka not been forced to keep Ryan on as DC.
Well, whether he was forced to or not is debatable, but the players were familiar with it and it worked fine with those same players until he got here. But that aside, he ran his own the next year. I think it was the one where half the field chose one defense and the other half picked a different one. That worked even less. I never bought into the whole not his defense then and I still don't today.
Post by paytonisgod on Jan 30, 2017 14:50:49 GMT -6
Regarding Loggains I'll just say I've seen a lot worse with a lot more talent.
Given the number of things he had to juggle throughout the season I'm actually kind of impressed. Of course he could have been just lucky last year and the good stuff was just random chance. But I don't get the same feeling of despair that I did with Turner or fucking Tice as OC.
Post by brasilbear on Jan 30, 2017 14:50:54 GMT -6
Will Loggains be a great OC one day? Don't know. I do know that right now his play calling improved from terrible to not terrible. If he can take the step from not-terrible to above average than he's worth keeping around. I'd rather fire the not-terrible guy and try to find an average guy but what do I know. I'd rather my OC NOT learn on the job.
I still can't get past this comment from Biggs after game 1. In my mind this would have been grounds for termination or loss of play calling authority:
"Maybe it's worth a look at the play selection by offensive coordinator Dowell Loggains. The Bears snapped the ball 32 times in shotgun formation and did not hand off once. They had 24 snaps with quarterback Jay Cutler under center and ran 19 times. One game doesn't make a trend. The sample size is too small and it's just the first entry in a data bank for the season. But that lopsided disparity of pass/run calls by formation could explain some of the struggles against the Texans. After all, Houston defensive coordinator Romeo Crennel is in his fourth decade in the NFL."
Seems to me he failed OFF play-calling 101 in that game.
Will Loggains be a great OC one day? Don't know. I do know that right now his play calling improved from terrible to not terrible. If he can take the step from not-terrible to above average than he's worth keeping around. I'd rather fire the not-terrible guy and try to find an average guy but what do I know. I'd rather my OC NOT learn on the job.
I still can't get past this comment from Biggs after game 1. In my mind this would have been grounds for termination or loss of play calling authority:
"Maybe it's worth a look at the play selection by offensive coordinator Dowell Loggains. The Bears snapped the ball 32 times in shotgun formation and did not hand off once. They had 24 snaps with quarterback Jay Cutler under center and ran 19 times. One game doesn't make a trend. The sample size is too small and it's just the first entry in a data bank for the season. But that lopsided disparity of pass/run calls by formation could explain some of the struggles against the Texans. After all, Houston defensive coordinator Romeo Crennel is in his fourth decade in the NFL."
Seems to me he failed OFF play-calling 101 in that game.
Sometimes there is no way to adjust as their guys may just be better than your guys and all you can do is lose slower. Or you start taking risks and you lose big. It's hard to do misdirection plays when you don't have any talent that the defense respects enough to effect the misdirection.
Will Loggains be a great OC one day? Don't know. I do know that right now his play calling improved from terrible to not terrible. If he can take the step from not-terrible to above average than he's worth keeping around. I'd rather fire the not-terrible guy and try to find an average guy but what do I know. I'd rather my OC NOT learn on the job.
I still can't get past this comment from Biggs after game 1. In my mind this would have been grounds for termination or loss of play calling authority:
"Maybe it's worth a look at the play selection by offensive coordinator Dowell Loggains. The Bears snapped the ball 32 times in shotgun formation and did not hand off once. They had 24 snaps with quarterback Jay Cutler under center and ran 19 times. One game doesn't make a trend. The sample size is too small and it's just the first entry in a data bank for the season. But that lopsided disparity of pass/run calls by formation could explain some of the struggles against the Texans. After all, Houston defensive coordinator Romeo Crennel is in his fourth decade in the NFL."
Seems to me he failed OFF play-calling 101 in that game.
Sometimes there is no way to adjust as their guys may just be better than your guys and all you can do is lose slower. Or you start taking risks and you lose big. It's hard to do misdirection plays when you don't have any talent that the defense respects enough to effect the misdirection.
Except no one is talking about adjustments or misdirection. Surely the Bears have runs out of the shotgun, yet they didn't call a single one. Teams run out of the shotgun all the time. The Texans could guess the play based on the formation: shotgun=pass, under center = run. When any NFL level DEF knows that is going to happen, that particular play is done. That was totally on Loggains and the OFF staff.