Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes

butkus3595
Hall of Famer

Posts: 6,799

Likes: 8,874

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes Oct 1, 2024 9:42:20 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Oct 1, 2024 9:42:20 GMT -6

Sept 30, 2024 20:30:24 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Sept 30, 2024 20:15:10 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

I doubt he's gained "no strength". It's literally the easiest thing to do in the world. It's like falling out of a boat and hitting water. Now, whether he can EXPRESS that strength is another story.

I'll take what Thayer and others are seeing, as well as my own eyes. If anything it seems he's gotten weaker.

Maybe. He did have a serious neck injury right? I have an issue with my neck that causes issues with my arms intermittently, mostly with my left. I get some atrophy in my triceps and am weaker in pressing movements with that arm than my right arm.

What I will point to again, is that its one thing to be strong, its another to be able to express that strength. Stephen Paea was really friggen strong! He sucked against the run and often got pushed back or sealed off cause he was never able to effectively express his strength against guys run blocking on him. Part of being able to show that expression is technique and positioning.

Quote

davidl
Hall of Famer

Posts: 5,674

Member is Online
Likes: 2,688

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes Oct 1, 2024 10:33:25 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Oct 1, 2024 10:33:25 GMT -6

Oct 1, 2024 9:42:20 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Sept 30, 2024 20:30:24 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

I'll take what Thayer and others are seeing, as well as my own eyes. If anything it seems he's gotten weaker.

Maybe. He did have a serious neck injury right? I have an issue with my neck that causes issues with my arms intermittently, mostly with my left. I get some atrophy in my triceps and am weaker in pressing movements with that arm than my right arm.

What I will point to again, is that it’s one thing to be strong, it’s another to be able to express that strength. Stephen Paea was really friggen strong! He sucked against the run and often got pushed back or sealed off cause he was never able to effectively express his strength against guys run blocking on him. Part of being able to show that expression is technique and positioning.

Don’t you think Morgan can teach technique or Brax learn it?

He gets in position and sets his anchor, but sometimes can’t hold it. That is a lower body strength issue. I would also like to see him add a little more weight.

There is no guarantee Poles will get someone better in free agency, and if we spend the first draft pick on LT, he’s still going to look for a cheap solution at center — we’ve been watching that movie for three years!

Quote

riczaj01
Administrator

Posts: 11,458

Likes: 10,242

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes Oct 1, 2024 11:04:39 GMT -6

Post by riczaj01 on Oct 1, 2024 11:04:39 GMT -6

Oct 1, 2024 9:42:20 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Sept 30, 2024 20:30:24 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

I'll take what Thayer and others are seeing, as well as my own eyes. If anything it seems he's gotten weaker.

Maybe. He did have a serious neck injury right? I have an issue with my neck that causes issues with my arms intermittently, mostly with my left. I get some atrophy in my triceps and am weaker in pressing movements with that arm than my right arm.

What I will point to again, is that its one thing to be strong, its another to be able to express that strength. Stephen Paea was really friggen strong! He sucked against the run and often got pushed back or sealed off cause he was never able to effectively express his strength against guys run blocking on him. Part of being able to show that expression is technique and positioning.

Could be. But if the neck injury is limiting his strength and his ability to play, then he's not that much better of an option then Jenkins who also struggles w/health that can limit his play on the field.

All NFL players are strong though, it's about, are you stronger than the guy next to you or on the other side of you. Right now Jones is not stronger, no matter how strong he is. Paea was strong, but not compared to the guys on the DL facing him. Either way, it's not good enough to continue with.

Quote

butkus3595
Hall of Famer

Posts: 6,799

Likes: 8,874

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes Oct 1, 2024 11:20:52 GMT -6 Whisky Beer Bob and papabear7 like this

Post by butkus3595 on Oct 1, 2024 11:20:52 GMT -6

Oct 1, 2024 10:33:25 GMT -6 davidl said:

Oct 1, 2024 9:42:20 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Maybe. He did have a serious neck injury right? I have an issue with my neck that causes issues with my arms intermittently, mostly with my left. I get some atrophy in my triceps and am weaker in pressing movements with that arm than my right arm.

What I will point to again, is that it’s one thing to be strong, it’s another to be able to express that strength. Stephen Paea was really friggen strong! He sucked against the run and often got pushed back or sealed off cause he was never able to effectively express his strength against guys run blocking on him. Part of being able to show that expression is technique and positioning.

Don’t you think Morgan can teach technique or Brax learn it?

He gets in position and sets his anchor, but sometimes can’t hold it. That is a lower body strength issue. I would also like to see him add a little more weight.

There is no guarantee Poles will get someone better in free agency, and if we spend the first draft pick on LT, he’s still going to look for a cheap solution at center — we’ve been watching that movie for three years!

I said technique is PART of it...not the whole thing. Can Morgan teach technique? Sure...I'm sure he can. But Brax is going to have to problem solve in game a little too. Technique doesn't exist in isolation, the environment matters, the structure of the athlete matters, the athletes ability to perceive the stimulus being presented to them and react...and yes, the strength level of the athlete matters. So what is the limiting factor/factors here that isn't allowing Brax to do his job effectively?

I found this quote from Brax during training camp when asked about where he's at with his improvement against the bull rush to be interesting: "I’m starting to really see the numbers to me when I get back in my set. And I really see those numbers and starting to punch them and anchoring down on it a lot better, so I’m starting to see it a lot quicker.

I still think there’s just some improvement when they’re attacking my inside shoulder. But other than that I’m definitely getting better each day."

He mentions "seeing the numbers quicker and starting to punch"...thats perception of stimulus. If I'm late to recognize/diagnose a stimulus I'm not going to win unless I'm uber strong or fast. Like a baseball player who swings late on a fastball...they're not going to hit the ball unless their swing is super fast through the zone, and even then, its not going to be ideal most likely. Another example is Shaqarri Richardson. She is incredibly fast...obviously. However, her times are not as good as they could/should be because her start is not very good. She's been able to get away with it in races, but not always, and it is a limiting factor in her performance. So if the brain is late receiving the electrical signals to contract muscles and produce force/show strength...its not going to be performed as well as it could be, to put it simply. Timing matters, so if Brax is late to anchor and punch, he's gonna get beat, no matter how strong he is, generally speaking.

As for lower body strength...yes, it could be an issue. I've never seen Brax train, I don't know what his absolute strength looks like, so I can't speak on it intelligently. I do know that I never saw Dave Diehl squat once during his career when he trained at the gym I was at. And on the RARE occasion he did squat, it wasn't more than 225. He didn't have an issue handling the bull rush. Its possible to be strong and not be able to show it because of the reasons I talked about above.

Quote

butkus3595
Hall of Famer

Posts: 6,799

Likes: 8,874

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes Oct 1, 2024 11:23:29 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Oct 1, 2024 11:23:29 GMT -6

Oct 1, 2024 11:04:39 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Oct 1, 2024 9:42:20 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Maybe. He did have a serious neck injury right? I have an issue with my neck that causes issues with my arms intermittently, mostly with my left. I get some atrophy in my triceps and am weaker in pressing movements with that arm than my right arm.

What I will point to again, is that its one thing to be strong, its another to be able to express that strength. Stephen Paea was really friggen strong! He sucked against the run and often got pushed back or sealed off cause he was never able to effectively express his strength against guys run blocking on him. Part of being able to show that expression is technique and positioning.

Could be. But if the neck injury is limiting his strength and his ability to play, then he's not that much better of an option then Jenkins who also struggles w/health that can limit his play on the field.

All NFL players are strong though, it's about, are you stronger than the guy next to you or on the other side of you. Right now Jones is not stronger, no matter how strong he is. Paea was strong, but not compared to the guys on the DL facing him. Either way, it's not good enough to continue with.

Not that it means much to me....but Paea is second all time in bench press reps at the combine. The all time record holder only did 2 more reps than him. He was one of the strongest dudes in the league...but his expression of that strength...as you said, not as good as the o-lineman he had to face.

Quote

papabear7
Team Captain

Posts: 1,203

Likes: 1,822

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes Oct 1, 2024 11:54:19 GMT -6

Post by papabear7 on Oct 1, 2024 11:54:19 GMT -6

In the Tweet that Brasil posted over in the other thread, showing all of Jones' snaps, in my very uneducated opinion he often looked very upright as he was engaging the defender. Seems to me it's less a strenght issue and more technique/leverage related. And, if he hasn't figured it out by now I'm losing hope he ever will.

Quote

JABF
Administrator

Posts: 19,848
Likes: 20,503

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes Oct 1, 2024 12:44:44 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Oct 1, 2024 12:44:44 GMT -6

Sept 30, 2024 21:13:45 GMT -6 davidl said:

I think Verse is better than Will Anderson. He’s as fast and much stronger. Brax has always had problems with good bull rush, and it doesn’t seem to have gotten better. That was a very disappointing performance.

He looks about on the level of Larry Borom who played some LT for us in 2021, and quite a bit of LT last season. Just not very good. They look like what they are, later round draft picks (both were 5th rounders). We want desperately to believe "we got a steal" in the draft with these guys. But we didn't. They look like who they are. Not good. Brax is going to get Caleb IR'd with those misses... the hits on Caleb also must take a physical toll on Caleb's body.

Bears need a LT, C and probably two guards. That will take both a serious investment in the draft and in FA (with real money being spent, and no Nate Davis JAGs please). The Bears are trying to get by THIS year with giving the OL a lot of help. I get that. But that is not the best way forward in 2025 and beyond. Caleb's talent potential is wasted if that is the case.

We talk about being "Super Bowl ready" in 2025, but after the first four games of this season (granted, very early) it's beginning to look like the offense will be lucky to be "average offense ready" in 2025. LOL, I know people are gonna jump on me for "being negative" on this. But that is what I see. If others think they "see" better then hey, more power too 'em.

Quote

Last Edit: Oct 1, 2024 12:47:03 GMT -6 by JABF

"Do anything that might make the world a better place for someone"
-Walter Payton

davidl
Hall of Famer

Posts: 5,674

Member is Online
Likes: 2,688

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes Oct 1, 2024 15:36:51 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Oct 1, 2024 15:36:51 GMT -6

Oct 1, 2024 12:44:44 GMT -6 JABF said:

Sept 30, 2024 21:13:45 GMT -6 davidl said:

I think Verse is better than Will Anderson. He’s as fast and much stronger. Brax has always had problems with good bull rush, and it doesn’t seem to have gotten better. That was a very disappointing performance.

He looks about on the level of Larry Borom who played some LT for us in 2021, and quite a bit of LT last season. Just not very good. They look like what they are, later round draft picks (both were 5th rounders). We want desperately to believe "we got a steal" in the draft with these guys. But we didn't. They look like who they are. Not good. Brax is going to get Caleb IR'd with those misses... the hits on Caleb also must take a physical toll on Caleb's body.

Bears need a LT, C and probably two guards. That will take both a serious investment in the draft and in FA (with real money being spent, and no Nate Davis JAGs please). The Bears are trying to get by THIS year with giving the OL a lot of help. I get that. But that is not the best way forward in 2025 and beyond. Caleb's talent potential is wasted if that is the case.

We talk about being "Super Bowl ready" in 2025, but after the first four games of this season (granted, very early) it's beginning to look like the offense will be lucky to be "average offense ready" in 2025. LOL, I know people are gonna jump on me for "being negative" on this. But that is what I see. If others think they "see" better then hey, more power too 'em.

Seahawks have 31st ranked OL and arguably no better WRs than the Bears. So this is not ALL on the OL. Seahawks can move the ball and put points on the board with a crappy OL. I should know.

Why not give Amegadjie some playing time at LT? If he’s the future, then Poles can FINALLY give priority to center. But we won’t know with him sitting on the bench.

Quote

davidl
Hall of Famer

Posts: 5,674

Member is Online
Likes: 2,688

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes Oct 1, 2024 15:45:28 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Oct 1, 2024 15:45:28 GMT -6

Oct 1, 2024 11:20:52 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Oct 1, 2024 10:33:25 GMT -6 davidl said:

Don’t you think Morgan can teach technique or Brax learn it?

He gets in position and sets his anchor, but sometimes can’t hold it. That is a lower body strength issue. I would also like to see him add a little more weight.

There is no guarantee Poles will get someone better in free agency, and if we spend the first draft pick on LT, he’s still going to look for a cheap solution at center — we’ve been watching that movie for three years!

I said technique is PART of it...not the whole thing. Can Morgan teach technique? Sure...I'm sure he can. But Brax is going to have to problem solve in game a little too. Technique doesn't exist in isolation, the environment matters, the structure of the athlete matters, the athletes ability to perceive the stimulus being presented to them and react...and yes, the strength level of the athlete matters. So what is the limiting factor/factors here that isn't allowing Brax to do his job effectively?

I found this quote from Brax during training camp when asked about where he's at with his improvement against the bull rush to be interesting: "I’m starting to really see the numbers to me when I get back in my set. And I really see those numbers and starting to punch them and anchoring down on it a lot better, so I’m starting to see it a lot quicker.

I still think there’s just some improvement when they’re attacking my inside shoulder. But other than that I’m definitely getting better each day."

He mentions "seeing the numbers quicker and starting to punch"...thats perception of stimulus. If I'm late to recognize/diagnose a stimulus I'm not going to win unless I'm uber strong or fast. Like a baseball player who swings late on a fastball...they're not going to hit the ball unless their swing is super fast through the zone, and even then, its not going to be ideal most likely. Another example is Shaqarri Richardson. She is incredibly fast...obviously. However, her times are not as good as they could/should be because her start is not very good. She's been able to get away with it in races, but not always, and it is a limiting factor in her performance. So if the brain is late receiving the electrical signals to contract muscles and produce force/show strength...its not going to be performed as well as it could be, to put it simply. Timing matters, so if Brax is late to anchor and punch, he's gonna get beat, no matter how strong he is, generally speaking.

As for lower body strength...yes, it could be an issue. I've never seen Brax train, I don't know what his absolute strength looks like, so I can't speak on it intelligently. I do know that I never saw Dave Diehl squat once during his career when he trained at the gym I was at. And on the RARE occasion he did squat, it wasn't more than 225. He didn't have an issue handling the bull rush. Its possible to be strong and not be able to show it because of the reasons I talked about above.

Well, you might be right. Brax might be fixable with a better coach than Morgan.

But Thayer and Gabriel both say strength is the problem. That’s also fixable, but he needs to do the right kind of weight training. You know that better than I.

Quote

JABF
Administrator

Posts: 19,848
Likes: 20,503

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes Oct 1, 2024 16:16:16 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Oct 1, 2024 16:16:16 GMT -6

Oct 1, 2024 15:36:51 GMT -6 davidl said:

Oct 1, 2024 12:44:44 GMT -6 JABF said:

He looks about on the level of Larry Borom who played some LT for us in 2021, and quite a bit of LT last season. Just not very good. They look like what they are, later round draft picks (both were 5th rounders). We want desperately to believe "we got a steal" in the draft with these guys. But we didn't. They look like who they are. Not good. Brax is going to get Caleb IR'd with those misses... the hits on Caleb also must take a physical toll on Caleb's body.

Bears need a LT, C and probably two guards. That will take both a serious investment in the draft and in FA (with real money being spent, and no Nate Davis JAGs please). The Bears are trying to get by THIS year with giving the OL a lot of help. I get that. But that is not the best way forward in 2025 and beyond. Caleb's talent potential is wasted if that is the case.

We talk about being "Super Bowl ready" in 2025, but after the first four games of this season (granted, very early) it's beginning to look like the offense will be lucky to be "average offense ready" in 2025. LOL, I know people are gonna jump on me for "being negative" on this. But that is what I see. If others think they "see" better then hey, more power too 'em.

Seahawks have 31st ranked OL and arguably no better WRs than the Bears. So this is not ALL on the OL. Seahawks can move the ball and put points on the board with a crappy OL. I should know.

Why not give Amegadjie some playing time at LT? If he’s the future, then Poles can FINALLY give priority to center. But we won’t know with him sitting on the bench.

I agree that it's not all on the OL. Some is on the rookie quarterback. Some on Shane Waldron - some of his play designs (some) and the play calling. Some is the installation of a new offense with a lot of new players. I'm still believing that a lot of this can be improved (and the offense & Caleb are incrementally improving each game now).

I see your point, but I don't think we'll see Braxton Jones benched at this point. The Bears are probably thinking they need 5 guys getting reps together as a unit now - as best they can accommodate that with injuries happening. Amegadjie is listed as the backup LT right now. If Brax gets injured we'll see him play at that point. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with any of this. That's just my gut feeling. Brax is the guy this year. And the Bears have him next year on a rookie 5th round player deal... so he's an affordable backup next year, much like Larry Borom was this year in his last rookie contract year. I'll bet Brax becomes the new Borom in 2025.

Darnell Wright had a good game pass-protecting on Sunday. He didn't allow any pressures, sacks, hurries. We can quibble about where he should play, but he does look like a legit NFL starter. Other than him, I'm not sure the other 4 guys make sense being on the 2025 roster as starters (Jenkins is a health issue). Amegadjie (hopefully) is one of those 4 starters needed. I'll bet he is. That leaves 3 starter quality IOL to find. Maybe Bates could be a good guard. The one year he had a lot of work was in 2022, mostly at RG. He really wasn't that good. Not horrible but not that good (LINK). 59.0 run-blocking. 61.5 pass-blocking. 23 hurries, 4 hits on the QB, and 28 pressures on the QB allowed. 3 penalties. Again, that's mostly as a RG that year. Is that "good enough" for the Bears next year? I don't think so. He is an undrafted guy... and has that Borom-Brax vibe for me (a bargain bin dude... a "hope and a prayer" guy. Or as you say, "a lost dog" guy.

Quote

"Do anything that might make the world a better place for someone"
-Walter Payton

Remembering Dick Butkus

Countdown Clock

Bears 2024 Schedule

Chitown Bears Affiliates

Announcements

Recent Threads

Brax got dominated yesterday by Jared Verse' bull rushes

Post by butkus3595 on Oct 1, 2024 9:42:20 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Oct 1, 2024 10:33:25 GMT -6

Post by riczaj01 on Oct 1, 2024 11:04:39 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Oct 1, 2024 11:20:52 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Oct 1, 2024 11:23:29 GMT -6

Post by papabear7 on Oct 1, 2024 11:54:19 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Oct 1, 2024 12:44:44 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Oct 1, 2024 15:36:51 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Oct 1, 2024 15:45:28 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Oct 1, 2024 16:16:16 GMT -6