Will OL waste Williams rookie season?

The Marshall Plan
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Will OL waste Williams rookie season? Sept 11, 2024 1:10:06 GMT -6 JABF likes this

Post by The Marshall Plan on Sept 11, 2024 1:10:06 GMT -6

Sept 10, 2024 15:58:46 GMT -6 JABF said:

Sept 10, 2024 15:26:30 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

The criteria can't be that CW needs to be surrounded by high level talent at all positions. That just isn't realistic.

The choice was made to give CW high performing weapons to surround him at the expense of building the line.

That's how it works in a league with a salary cap.

So whether it's the OL, WRs or somebody else there's going to be a weak line on the offense.

Now we can discuss the better way to build an offense, but reality is that Poles focused on skill players and not the line.

I think the Bears felt the OL was good enough (near league average) so they could ride with this group of players until next draft/FA. I'd be happy if the OL can get to a league average unit this season. It is reasonable to believe we will see some level of improvement over what we saw in the 1st game. I'm not expecting a great OL but it should get better to some extent.

They will tinker with various combos until they find something that clicks, for now.

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Will OL waste Williams rookie season? Sept 11, 2024 1:14:50 GMT -6

Post by The Marshall Plan on Sept 11, 2024 1:14:50 GMT -6

Sept 10, 2024 16:55:06 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Sept 10, 2024 15:26:30 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

The criteria can't be that CW needs to be surrounded by high level talent at all positions. That just isn't realistic.

The choice was made to give CW high performing weapons to surround him at the expense of building the line.

That's how it works in a league with a salary cap.

So whether it's the OL, WRs or somebody else there's going to be a weak line on the offense.

Now we can discuss the better way to build an offense, but reality is that Poles focused on skill players and not the line.

who's talking high level? There is a wide swath of talent between high level OL and the absolute trash that was the IOL on Sunday.

but this is also why i wasn't okay w/Allen + Rome at the expense of the IOL, which was a problem, an obvious problem and a far bigger need then more weapons when you had DJ + Kmet to begin with

We need to realize how this team was built, where the money was spent, where the draft picks were used, and then it's pretty clear how we got here.

Given that there's a salary cap, there needs to be an acknowledgement that not every part of this team (or any NFL team) is going to operate at a high level. That's the consequence of having two star WRs, one highly drafted rookie, Kmet, and that defense. Something had to give.

It could very well be that this is Cutler's, or Fields' lines all over again.

Poles was faced with a choice of surrounding Caleb with weapons or building an offensive line. He chose to surround Caleb with weapons. Now here we are.

I think it's going to be another couple of games (past the Colts game) and they're going to start playing around with combos.

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The Marshall Plan
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Will OL waste Williams rookie season? Sept 11, 2024 2:11:42 GMT -6 shark86 likes this

Post by The Marshall Plan on Sept 11, 2024 2:11:42 GMT -6

Sept 10, 2024 21:50:19 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Sept 10, 2024 15:26:30 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

The criteria can't be that CW needs to be surrounded by high level talent at all positions. That just isn't realistic.

The choice was made to give CW high performing weapons to surround him at the expense of building the line.

That's how it works in a league with a salary cap.

So whether it's the OL, WRs or somebody else there's going to be a weak line on the offense.

Now we can discuss the better way to build an offense, but reality is that Poles focused on skill players and not the line.

I wanted to post something like this earlier so thank you.

Every single team has to make business decisions on where they need to spend extra money and where they can cut back. KC let go of Tyreek freakin Hill for crying out loud. There is no team in the NFL that can "invest heavily" everywhere.

Yet, despite understanding that, it is a little frustrating that we have had this problem (iOL) for years now. Remember that SB where Mahomes lost to Brady? That loss was mostly on Tampa's excellent DL putting big pressure on Mahomes up the middle all game long. Reid immediately drafted Creed Humphrey and signed two new tackles a few months later and they have been almost unbeatable since.

We seem to have had holes or at least question marks at 2 of the 3 iOL positions for quite a while now and the "solutions" haven't panned out. We still don't seem to have a league-average, competent center and Nate Davis apparently quit caring as soon as he got paid. I hope Flus and the OL coach make it very clear to Shelton and Davis this week that they get one more start this Sunday and, if there isn't substantial improvement (and effort from ND), they are both going to the bench.

I'm trying to wrap my head around why the OL is still a problem in Year 3 of Poles and here are my thoughts:

1) Poles inherited virtually nothing from Pace: No first round pick. A probable need to change QBs. Older and oft-injured players. Cap constraints.

2) Poles needed to hire a HC.

3) In between Year 1 and Year 2 was when Poles could start building. Poles needed BODIES and not necessarily STARS so he traded the #1. To his credit, he drafted Wright in the first and got a fourth from Philly basically for free. In FA, Poles could only sign the people who were available. So he got the LBs and other pieces.

4) Within Year 2, it was evident that we needed a pass rusher, so the Sweat trade was made.

5) With the improvement in Year 2, it now made sense to draft stars instead of accumulating bodies. Here comes Caleb and Odunze. Poles had to draft Caleb politically. Poles could've traded that pick for a King's Ransom, but if Caleb winds up being the next Aaron Rodgers then Poles would've been fired. The Odunze pick is debatable, but makes sense when you look at it like a star prospect dropped and we got lucky. That pick could've been used on DL or traded for something else.

6) The cap space starts to get tied up on players acquired via FA (Edmunds, Edwards and our own JJ), then extended players acquired via trade (Moore and Sweat).

So, rightly or wrongly, it just seems like the OL was put on the back burner. Yes we drafted Wright, but it can't only be him out there.

What this means to me is that those four picks in the first three rounds next year have to be predominately (or all) spent on the lines; both OL and DL. C, G, and DT unless Dexter booms this season. Then C, G, and T.

But if all four of those picks are spent on C, T, and G x 2 then it'll be boring as hell, but I'm fine with that. It's what we need.

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riczaj01
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Will OL waste Williams rookie season? Sept 11, 2024 5:57:17 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan likes this

Post by riczaj01 on Sept 11, 2024 5:57:17 GMT -6

Sept 11, 2024 1:14:50 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

Sept 10, 2024 16:55:06 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

who's talking high level? There is a wide swath of talent between high level OL and the absolute trash that was the IOL on Sunday.

but this is also why i wasn't okay w/Allen + Rome at the expense of the IOL, which was a problem, an obvious problem and a far bigger need then more weapons when you had DJ + Kmet to begin with

We need to realize how this team was built, where the money was spent, where the draft picks were used, and then it's pretty clear how we got here.

Given that there's a salary cap, there needs to be an acknowledgement that not every part of this team (or any NFL team) is going to operate at a high level. That's the consequence of having two star WRs, one highly drafted rookie, Kmet, and that defense. Something had to give.

It could very well be that this is Cutler's, or Fields' lines all over again.

Poles was faced with a choice of surrounding Caleb with weapons or building an offensive line. He chose to surround Caleb with weapons. Now here we are.

I think it's going to be another couple of games (past the Colts game) and they're going to start playing around with combos.

I've been acknowledging that all offseason and complaining about it. You cannot build a team around weapons and ignore the OL. The OL is the framework of the O. W/out it all the shiny paint and all the nice metalwork won't do anything.

MP pointed out that KC got to, and lost a SB b/c their IOL was trash and got exposed by TB. The Bears don't have Mahomes, and for all the weapons, they don't have a Hill or Kelce.

Choosing Wr's over OL is a very early 2000's Det move; and they were trash and this is going to make it hard to judge Caleb, Waldron and this entire team b/c of it.

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The Marshall Plan
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Will OL waste Williams rookie season? Sept 11, 2024 6:26:56 GMT -6 via mobile riczaj01 and shark86 like this

Post by The Marshall Plan on Sept 11, 2024 6:26:56 GMT -6

Sept 11, 2024 5:57:17 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Sept 11, 2024 1:14:50 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

We need to realize how this team was built, where the money was spent, where the draft picks were used, and then it's pretty clear how we got here.

Given that there's a salary cap, there needs to be an acknowledgement that not every part of this team (or any NFL team) is going to operate at a high level. That's the consequence of having two star WRs, one highly drafted rookie, Kmet, and that defense. Something had to give.

It could very well be that this is Cutler's, or Fields' lines all over again.

Poles was faced with a choice of surrounding Caleb with weapons or building an offensive line. He chose to surround Caleb with weapons. Now here we are.

I think it's going to be another couple of games (past the Colts game) and they're going to start playing around with combos.

I've been acknowledging that all offseason and complaining about it. You cannot build a team around weapons and ignore the OL. The OL is the framework of the O. W/out it all the shiny paint and all the nice metalwork won't do anything.

MP pointed out that KC got to, and lost a SB b/c their IOL was trash and got exposed by TB. The Bears don't have Mahomes, and for all the weapons, they don't have a Hill or Kelce.

Choosing Wr's over OL is a very early 2000's Det move; and they were trash and this is going to make it hard to judge Caleb, Waldron and this entire team b/c of it.

I totally agree with your approach.

I believe that a football team needs to be built from ball outwards.

In no order of importance:
QB
OL
DL

Then build out from there. But if you control the movement around the ball then you will control the ball and therefore the game. It’s very simple. My bigger guy pushes around your big guy and I can do what I want. Those extra 2 or 3 seconds per play make average WRs get open and give average RBs bigger holes to run through. The opposite is then true on defense.

If it were me? I would be giving Caleb a much simpler offense to execute. 2 TE sets. PA. Running the ball. I would’ve built the team that way. This lets Caleb ease into the league, build his confidence up and rests our D which is the strength of this team.

Then as Caleb gets more confident open it up.

But I don’t think we are here now because Poles doesn’t know how to build a football team. I think Poles is a borderline genius. I just think the real opportunity to fix the lines are in the 2025 draft when we have those four picks.

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mpbears68
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Will OL waste Williams rookie season? Sept 11, 2024 8:57:19 GMT -6 shark86 likes this

Post by mpbears68 on Sept 11, 2024 8:57:19 GMT -6

Sept 11, 2024 2:11:42 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

Sept 10, 2024 21:50:19 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

I wanted to post something like this earlier so thank you.

Every single team has to make business decisions on where they need to spend extra money and where they can cut back. KC let go of Tyreek freakin Hill for crying out loud. There is no team in the NFL that can "invest heavily" everywhere.

Yet, despite understanding that, it is a little frustrating that we have had this problem (iOL) for years now. Remember that SB where Mahomes lost to Brady? That loss was mostly on Tampa's excellent DL putting big pressure on Mahomes up the middle all game long. Reid immediately drafted Creed Humphrey and signed two new tackles a few months later and they have been almost unbeatable since.

We seem to have had holes or at least question marks at 2 of the 3 iOL positions for quite a while now and the "solutions" haven't panned out. We still don't seem to have a league-average, competent center and Nate Davis apparently quit caring as soon as he got paid. I hope Flus and the OL coach make it very clear to Shelton and Davis this week that they get one more start this Sunday and, if there isn't substantial improvement (and effort from ND), they are both going to the bench.

I'm trying to wrap my head around why the OL is still a problem in Year 3 of Poles and here are my thoughts:

1) Poles inherited virtually nothing from Pace: No first round pick. A probable need to change QBs. Older and oft-injured players. Cap constraints.

2) Poles needed to hire a HC.

3) In between Year 1 and Year 2 was when Poles could start building. Poles needed BODIES and not necessarily STARS so he traded the #1. To his credit, he drafted Wright in the first and got a fourth from Philly basically for free. In FA, Poles could only sign the people who were available. So he got the LBs and other pieces.

4) Within Year 2, it was evident that we needed a pass rusher, so the Sweat trade was made.

5) With the improvement in Year 2, it now made sense to draft stars instead of accumulating bodies. Here comes Caleb and Odunze. Poles had to draft Caleb politically. Poles could've traded that pick for a King's Ransom, but if Caleb winds up being the next Aaron Rodgers then Poles would've been fired. The Odunze pick is debatable, but makes sense when you look at it like a star prospect dropped and we got lucky. That pick could've been used on DL or traded for something else.

6) The cap space starts to get tied up on players acquired via FA (Edmunds, Edwards and our own JJ), then extended players acquired via trade (Moore and Sweat).

So, rightly or wrongly, it just seems like the OL was put on the back burner. Yes we drafted Wright, but it can't only be him out there.

What this means to me is that those four picks in the first three rounds next year have to be predominately (or all) spent on the lines; both OL and DL. C, G, and DT unless Dexter booms this season. Then C, G, and T.

But if all four of those picks are spent on C, T, and G x 2 then it'll be boring as hell, but I'm fine with that. It's what we need.

The iOL sucked on Sunday against one of the NFL's best DT duo but before everyone starts trying to rewrite history, let's be clear.

Odunze was THE CLEAR BPA at #9 when the Bears picked. No doubt about it whatsoever. The team had a major need too. We have sucked at WR for decades, Keenan Allen is probably only here for a year, and RO was the missing piece in that he's a contested catch monster and that's something we didn't have with DJM and KA.

There was no OL, much less iOL, left on the board who was worth taking there. In fact, iOLs rarely get drafted that high by any team. Perhaps Poles could have traded down but that's just speculation--none of us know if there was a good offer on the table or not.

My main quibble with Poles on this issue is that he hasn't been able to shore up the iOL outside of the draft. He had other options available at C in FA. Same thing with G. I think he could have and should have done more outside of the draft.

Regardless, I am not panicking yet. The DT duo they faced on Sunday was one of the league's very best. There was definitely some confusion on a few plays (they set for pass blocking on a running play twice) and CW clearly had some opening day jitters that caused him to overcook a couple throws he normally makes easily. As soon as Ryan Bates is healthy I want to see him in there preferably at RG (I'm fed up with Nate Davis) and then we will have a better picture.

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riczaj01
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Will OL waste Williams rookie season? Sept 11, 2024 8:58:30 GMT -6

Post by riczaj01 on Sept 11, 2024 8:58:30 GMT -6

Sept 11, 2024 8:57:19 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Sept 11, 2024 2:11:42 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around why the OL is still a problem in Year 3 of Poles and here are my thoughts:

1) Poles inherited virtually nothing from Pace: No first round pick. A probable need to change QBs. Older and oft-injured players. Cap constraints.

2) Poles needed to hire a HC.

3) In between Year 1 and Year 2 was when Poles could start building. Poles needed BODIES and not necessarily STARS so he traded the #1. To his credit, he drafted Wright in the first and got a fourth from Philly basically for free. In FA, Poles could only sign the people who were available. So he got the LBs and other pieces.

4) Within Year 2, it was evident that we needed a pass rusher, so the Sweat trade was made.

5) With the improvement in Year 2, it now made sense to draft stars instead of accumulating bodies. Here comes Caleb and Odunze. Poles had to draft Caleb politically. Poles could've traded that pick for a King's Ransom, but if Caleb winds up being the next Aaron Rodgers then Poles would've been fired. The Odunze pick is debatable, but makes sense when you look at it like a star prospect dropped and we got lucky. That pick could've been used on DL or traded for something else.

6) The cap space starts to get tied up on players acquired via FA (Edmunds, Edwards and our own JJ), then extended players acquired via trade (Moore and Sweat).

So, rightly or wrongly, it just seems like the OL was put on the back burner. Yes we drafted Wright, but it can't only be him out there.

What this means to me is that those four picks in the first three rounds next year have to be predominately (or all) spent on the lines; both OL and DL. C, G, and DT unless Dexter booms this season. Then C, G, and T.

But if all four of those picks are spent on C, T, and G x 2 then it'll be boring as hell, but I'm fine with that. It's what we need.

The iOL sucked on Sunday against one of the NFL's best DT duo but before everyone starts trying to rewrite history, let's be clear.

Odunze was THE CLEAR BPA at #9 when the Bears picked. No doubt about it whatsoever. The team had a major need too. We have sucked at WR for decades, Keenan Allen is probably only here for a year, and RO was the missing piece in that he's a contested catch monster and that's something we didn't have with DJM and KA.

There was no OL, much less iOL, left on the board who was worth taking there. In fact, iOLs rarely get drafted that high by any team. Perhaps Poles could have traded down but that's just speculation--none of us know if there was a good offer on the table or not.

My main quibble with Poles on this issue is that he hasn't been able to shore up the iOL outside of the draft. He had other options available at C in FA. Same thing with G. I think he could have and should have done more outside of the draft.

Regardless, I am not panicking yet. The DT duo they faced on Sunday was one of the league's very best. There was definitely some confusion on a few plays (they set for pass blocking on a running play twice) and CW clearly had some opening day jitters that caused him to overcook a couple throws he normally makes easily. As soon as Ryan Bates is healthy I want to see him in there preferably at RG (I'm fed up with Nate Davis) and then we will have a better picture.

0 people think they should have stayed at 9 and taken an IOL.

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The Marshall Plan
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Will OL waste Williams rookie season? Sept 11, 2024 9:30:23 GMT -6 via mobile riczaj01 likes this

Post by The Marshall Plan on Sept 11, 2024 9:30:23 GMT -6

Sept 11, 2024 8:58:30 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Sept 11, 2024 8:57:19 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

The iOL sucked on Sunday against one of the NFL's best DT duo but before everyone starts trying to rewrite history, let's be clear.

Odunze was THE CLEAR BPA at #9 when the Bears picked. No doubt about it whatsoever. The team had a major need too. We have sucked at WR for decades, Keenan Allen is probably only here for a year, and RO was the missing piece in that he's a contested catch monster and that's something we didn't have with DJM and KA.

There was no OL, much less iOL, left on the board who was worth taking there. In fact, iOLs rarely get drafted that high by any team. Perhaps Poles could have traded down but that's just speculation--none of us know if there was a good offer on the table or not.

My main quibble with Poles on this issue is that he hasn't been able to shore up the iOL outside of the draft. He had other options available at C in FA. Same thing with G. I think he could have and should have done more outside of the draft.

Regardless, I am not panicking yet. The DT duo they faced on Sunday was one of the league's very best. There was definitely some confusion on a few plays (they set for pass blocking on a running play twice) and CW clearly had some opening day jitters that caused him to overcook a couple throws he normally makes easily. As soon as Ryan Bates is healthy I want to see him in there preferably at RG (I'm fed up with Nate Davis) and then we will have a better picture.

0 people think they should have stayed at 9 and taken an IOL.

What surprises me is the lack of FA money spent here. Even on just one guy. Sign an OL that’s a leader. That gives us an identity and sets a tone. Like Olin Kreutz. A Captain for that line that sets expectations, performance and sets the tone.

Jenkins doesn’t seem to be that guy. I’m sorry I love him but I don’t get the leadership vibe from him. Wright isn’t either.

Somebody on that line to take charge, command the other four, not take any shit and set expectations.

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Last Edit: Sept 11, 2024 9:30:53 GMT -6 by The Marshall Plan

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JABF
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Will OL waste Williams rookie season? Sept 11, 2024 9:33:03 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Sept 11, 2024 9:33:03 GMT -6

Sept 11, 2024 2:11:42 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

So, rightly or wrongly, it just seems like the OL was put on the back burner. Yes we drafted Wright, but it can't only be him out there.

What this means to me is that those four picks in the first three rounds next year have to be predominately (or all) spent on the lines; both OL and DL. C, G, and DT unless Dexter booms this season. Then C, G, and T.

+1
There were so many needs after the roster was nuked in year-1. The needs were greater than the resources available to meet those needs. I will always believe that Poles felt like he had duct taped the OL to get to 2025 and could spend top resources on the OL. That's not a criticism on my part. Hindsight is always 20-20 so I'm not chunking rocks at Poles here. Wright grades out as the centerpiece of the OL. Braxton Jones is Leno-II and that's not a bad thing. I'll take a Leno-level LT right now. We could do worse. Jenkins is made of glass... we know that now.

We know the value of having a great OL center. The best OL's we've had in the past have been anchored by that level of guy (think Jay Hilgenburg and Kreutz). That guy is the glue that holds the IOL together. Poles has to know that you can't get that kind of quality C on the cheap. You need to invest either a high draft pick or open the pocket book and pay out for a stud veteran. It will not easy to get one in FA but maybe one becomes available in 2025. You never know. I think Poles needs to identify the top C in next year's draft and get that guy - whatever it takes as far as your draft picks you're holding. And even if he does get that guy, he won't be much his rookie season. It takes time for a guy to develop at C. And like QB's it requires a really high football-IQ guy there to shine. But once you get that guy you probably have the IOL set for 10+ seasons at the C position.

Talk is cheap. Poles can say whatever he wants, about "valuing" the OL, well, it means nothing until we see it happen. Wright was a good first building block. More blocks are needed to build a strong OL to support the skill guys and Caleb. The OL sets the ceiling for it all.

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JABF
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Will OL waste Williams rookie season? Sept 11, 2024 9:37:52 GMT -6 shark86 likes this

Post by JABF on Sept 11, 2024 9:37:52 GMT -6

Sept 11, 2024 9:30:23 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

Sept 11, 2024 8:58:30 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

0 people think they should have stayed at 9 and taken an IOL.

What surprises me is the lack of FA money spent here. Even on just one guy. Sign an OL that’s a leader. That gives us an identity and sets a tone. Like Olin Kreutz. A Captain for that line that sets expectations, performance and sets the tone.

Jenkins doesn’t seem to be that guy. I’m sorry I love him but I don’t get the leadership vibe from him. Wright isn’t either.

Somebody on that line to take charge, command the other four, not take any shit and set expectations.

And historically, that leader (on our very best offensive lines over the years) has usually been an elite C. Think Jay Hilgenberg (dude should be in the Hall of Fame) and Kreutz who is on the NFL All-Decade Team, perennial All-Pro and Pro-Bowl guy, and on the Bears Top-100 players of all time, spanning over 100 years.

I like Poles and most of what he has done so far. I give him another year regarding the OL. But in 2025 we need to see the unit fixed right. Not just tossing a bone of one player. The unit needs more than that, and certainly a stud center to anchor the unit.

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