Agreed. Look at how losing helped Green Bay get into the position to draft Rodgers and how it helped the Patriots get the high draft pick to get Brady!
They fell into Brady. None of the 32 teams knew how good he would be or he would have been the first pick of the draft and no other team would have had the opportunity to pick him. They won the lottery by virtue of wholesale scouting ignorance.
Maybe in another year or two people will talk about how Dallas fell into Prescott.
I think people are twisting this a bit. Nobody (that I know of anyway) was saying the team should purposely lose games. They were saying that if the team is going to be epic bad, then hopefully we would at least get a top-2 or 3 draft pick out of this horrific season.
This is how the NFL is set up. It tries to help bad teams get competitive again by awarding them higher draft picks.
No sane Bears fans wants the team to suck. But once the team does suck, then some fans do look forward to getting an opportunity to pick one of the very best players coming out of college.
I'm now reading about how the Patriots got Brady in the 6th round... like it doesn't mean squat where you draft on draft day. I've got news for folks, we are not getting a Tom Brady level QB in the 6th round of this coming draft.
I deeply enjoyed the game on Sunday. I love how the young players are making improvements. But there is nothing inherently evil in wanting a high draft pick to help our team get better. And I've said this many times on this board. That high draft pick isn't just a "first round thing" because it also means you pick high in EVERY round of the ENTIRE draft. That is a "good thing" right?
It kind of pisses me off how some are trying to twist this. Like fans want the team to throw games or something.
Yep. This is the fight I am tired of fighting. It can be repeated forever, but then the next defense for winning always seems to include why you should not tank. So every time a team loses a game, they tanked it? I agree they should not tank. But I also think at this point in the season, it would be better if they lost. AGAIN, FOR THE READING IMPAIRED.... THAT DOES NOT MEAN ON PURPOSE. It is possible to try and still lose. That is what I wanted. Well, they tried and they won. Not what I wanted, but I'm sure not going to be pissed they tried. That's what I wanted to see.
Sorry to tell you but motm has posted that the team should be losing on purpose ie tanking games on purpose. Sadly while many of us understand your point, your rational-ess gets linked in with his irrational beliefs. Hence we have the want to win crowd and the want to lose crowd.
Everyone knows that teams with more losses get higher draft picks. Everyone also knows that nothing in the draft is a sure thing. Everyone keeps pointing to players drafted right before your picks but ignores the better players picked after our picks. Having a high draft pick doesn't equal a better team (see Browns, Cleveland or Ram, Where ever they are from.) If the Bears lose and get a higher pick good, just don't expect some of us to support being disappointed that they won.
Yep. This is the fight I am tired of fighting. It can be repeated forever, but then the next defense for winning always seems to include why you should not tank. So every time a team loses a game, they tanked it? I agree they should not tank. But I also think at this point in the season, it would be better if they lost. AGAIN, FOR THE READING IMPAIRED.... THAT DOES NOT MEAN ON PURPOSE. It is possible to try and still lose. That is what I wanted. Well, they tried and they won. Not what I wanted, but I'm sure not going to be pissed they tried. That's what I wanted to see.
Sorry to tell you but motm has posted that the team should be losing on purpose ie tanking games on purpose. Sadly while many of us understand your point, your rational-ess gets linked in with his irrational beliefs. Hence we have the want to win crowd and the want to lose crowd.
Everyone knows that teams with more losses get higher draft picks. Everyone also knows that nothing in the draft is a sure thing. Everyone keeps pointing to players drafted right before your picks but ignores the better players picked after our picks. Having a high draft pick doesn't equal a better team (see Browns, Cleveland or Ram, Where ever they are from.) If the Bears lose and get a higher pick good, just don't expect some of us to support being disappointed that they won.
For sure. We are each our own people. To expect others to think exactly as we do would not be reasonable. I can't say I'm right. It's just how I feel and what I believe will help make the team better. Others feel differently, but we all are wanting to make the team better.
I think people are twisting this a bit. Nobody (that I know of anyway) was saying the team should purposely lose games. They were saying that if the team is going to be epic bad, then hopefully we would at least get a top-2 or 3 draft pick out of this horrific season.
This is how the NFL is set up. It tries to help bad teams get competitive again by awarding them higher draft picks.
No sane Bears fans wants the team to suck. But once the team does suck, then some fans do look forward to getting an opportunity to pick one of the very best players coming out of college.
I'm now reading about how the Patriots got Brady in the 6th round... like it doesn't mean squat where you draft on draft day. I've got news for folks, we are not getting a Tom Brady level QB in the 6th round of this coming draft.
I deeply enjoyed the game on Sunday. I love how the young players are making improvements. But there is nothing inherently evil in wanting a high draft pick to help our team get better. And I've said this many times on this board. That high draft pick isn't just a "first round thing" because it also means you pick high in EVERY round of the ENTIRE draft. That is a "good thing" right?
It kind of pisses me off how some are trying to twist this. Like fans want the team to throw games or something.
Yep. This is the fight I am tired of fighting. It can be repeated forever, but then the next defense for winning always seems to include why you should not tank. So every time a team loses a game, they tanked it? I agree they should not tank. But I also think at this point in the season, it would be better if they lost. AGAIN, FOR THE READING IMPAIRED.... THAT DOES NOT MEAN ON PURPOSE. It is possible to try and still lose. That is what I wanted. Well, they tried and they won. Not what I wanted, but I'm sure not going to be pissed they tried. That's what I wanted to see.
+1 One last point and then I'm going to try and move on. People point out that they want our GM to "find good talent" wherever we draft. What if the best talent is no longer available because it was drafted by another team who drafted ahead of us? Some years there is NO good franchise QB in the entire NFL draft. Believe me this has happened a number of times (I've looked at the past 50+ draft years of drafts this week out of curiousity).
Sometimes there is 1 or maybe 2 great players at a given position that we truly need, like QB - and if we expect to climb out of the talent-hole we are now in at some key positions it would be nice to have a viable pick available to choose to lead our franchise for the next 8 or 10 years.
Yes, you can draft the best from "what is left" and yes, there will still be some good players left. There always are. But the "best" may be off the board. We drafted Walter Payton at #4. If we had the #5 pick that year we surely could have drafted a good RB. But don't kid yourself - there was only 1 Walter Payton in that draft. The next RB taken in the 1st round that year was Don Hardemon out of Texas A&M. Old Don had a brief career and scored only - wait for it - two touchdowns in his entire career. Two. The GM who drafted old Don could be taken out back and shot in the head for not "finding good talent" at RB... but the "talent" was taken by the Bears at #4. Only 1 Walter Payton that year. LOL, there was only 1 Walter Payton in the history of the entire NFL.
Where there other great players taken in that draft. Sure. Another Hall of Famer, Randy White, was taken in that draft. But he was taken before Walter was (Randy White was taken in the #2 overall pick of that draft by Dallas).
See how this works?
But people will trot out that old example of Tom Brady, saying, "well the Patriots got Tom Brady in the 6th round" as if we are gonna draft a Tom Brady this year in the 6th round. I'm laughing my ass off at that kind of thinking. You don't just shake a "Tom Brady" tree and a Hall of Fame quarterback drops down into your lap.
Look. I'm fine with the win. I know we can still draft well with a lower pick. But that doesn't mean a top-2 or top-3 pick isn't a "good thing" to have - especially for a team that is experiencing a horrific season like we are. We now have 3 wins, and beat a 1-win team on Sunday. Yippee for us. But in April, after our few meager wins, we will be drafting so that we can climb out of the NFCN cellar. A high draft pick - in every round of the draft - will be nice. It's a "good thing" to have.
No we shouldn't "throw" games to get the high pick. But I figure that if you're gonna suck, my hope is that at least we get something positive out of a horrific year like this. That's my 2-cents anyway.
Yep. This is the fight I am tired of fighting. It can be repeated forever, but then the next defense for winning always seems to include why you should not tank. So every time a team loses a game, they tanked it? I agree they should not tank. But I also think at this point in the season, it would be better if they lost. AGAIN, FOR THE READING IMPAIRED.... THAT DOES NOT MEAN ON PURPOSE. It is possible to try and still lose. That is what I wanted. Well, they tried and they won. Not what I wanted, but I'm sure not going to be pissed they tried. That's what I wanted to see.
+1 One last point and then I'm going to try and move on. People point out that they want our GM to "find good talent" wherever we draft. What if the best talent is no longer available because it was drafted by another team who drafted ahead of us? Some years there is NO good franchise QB in the entire NFL draft (believe me this has happened a number of times...I've looked at the past 50+ draft years... others can do the same thing). Sometimes there is 1 or maybe 2 great players at a given position that we truly need, like QB - if we expect to climb out of the talent-hole we are now in at some key positions.
Yes, you can draft the "best from what is left" and there will still be some good players left. There always are. But the "best" may be off the board. We drafted Walter Payton at #4. If we had the #5 pick that year we surely could have drafted a good RB. But don't kid yourself - there was only 1 Walter Payton in that draft. The next RB taken in the 1st round that year was Don Hardemon out of Texas A&M. Old Don had a brief career and scored only - wait for it - two touchdowns in his entire career. Two. The GM who drafted old Don could be taken out back and shot in the head for not "finding good talent" at RB... but the "talent" was taken by the Bears at #4. Only 1 Walter Payton that year. LOL, there was only 1 Walter Payton in the history of the entire NFL.
Where there other great players taken in that draft. Sure. Another Hall of Famer, Randy White, was taken in that draft. But he was taken before Walter was (Randy White was taken in the #2 overall pick of that draft by Dallas).
See how this works?
But people will trot out that old example of Tom Brady, saying, "well the Patriots got Tom Brady in the 6th round" as if we are gonna draft a Tom Brady this year in the 6th round. I'm laughing my ass off at that kind of thinking. You don't just shake a "Tom Brady" tree and a Hall of Fame quarterback drops down into your lap.
Look. I'm fine with the win. I know we can still draft well with a lower pick. But that doesn't mean a top-2 or top-3 pick isn't a "good thing" to have - especially for a team that is experiencing a horrific season like we are. We now have 3 wins, and beat a 1-win team on Sunday. Yippee for us. But in April, after our few meager wins, we will be drafting so that we can climb out of the NFCN cellar. A high draft pick - in every round of the draft - will be nice. It's a "good thing" to have.
No we shouldn't "throw" games to get the high pick. But I figure that if you're gonna suck, my hope is that at least we get something positive out of a horrific year like this. That's my 2-cents anyway.
JABF. THat pretty much sums up my position also. I agree with everything, and I would like to add just one point. Yes, I agree that most of the best players are at the top and they are limited and every one taken means one less to take. At the same time, I know there are great players hiding lower in the draft. The point I want to make however is "hiding". It is easy to point out the guys that were taken lower in the draft and are hall of famers. It is easy only because it is after the fact. Those guys were hiding because no one knew they were there. If teams knew that they would be as good as they were, they would have also been at the beginning of the first round and gone.
Will there be more this year? sure. There are always a few. But to say it is the GMs job to find them, well, yeah... I agree. But when history consistently shows all 32 missing these guys and letting them get to the lower rounds, is it really fair to say that Pace needs to find them? He probably won't. So again, just like Prescott, they will be a lucky pick for someone. The best known bets (and sometimes they fail too) are at the top of the draft. To think anything else is just trying to rationalize an argument.
+1 One last point and then I'm going to try and move on. People point out that they want our GM to "find good talent" wherever we draft. What if the best talent is no longer available because it was drafted by another team who drafted ahead of us? Some years there is NO good franchise QB in the entire NFL draft (believe me this has happened a number of times...I've looked at the past 50+ draft years... others can do the same thing). Sometimes there is 1 or maybe 2 great players at a given position that we truly need, like QB - if we expect to climb out of the talent-hole we are now in at some key positions.
Yes, you can draft the "best from what is left" and there will still be some good players left. There always are. But the "best" may be off the board. We drafted Walter Payton at #4. If we had the #5 pick that year we surely could have drafted a good RB. But don't kid yourself - there was only 1 Walter Payton in that draft. The next RB taken in the 1st round that year was Don Hardemon out of Texas A&M. Old Don had a brief career and scored only - wait for it - two touchdowns in his entire career. Two. The GM who drafted old Don could be taken out back and shot in the head for not "finding good talent" at RB... but the "talent" was taken by the Bears at #4. Only 1 Walter Payton that year. LOL, there was only 1 Walter Payton in the history of the entire NFL.
Where there other great players taken in that draft. Sure. Another Hall of Famer, Randy White, was taken in that draft. But he was taken before Walter was (Randy White was taken in the #2 overall pick of that draft by Dallas).
See how this works?
But people will trot out that old example of Tom Brady, saying, "well the Patriots got Tom Brady in the 6th round" as if we are gonna draft a Tom Brady this year in the 6th round. I'm laughing my ass off at that kind of thinking. You don't just shake a "Tom Brady" tree and a Hall of Fame quarterback drops down into your lap.
Look. I'm fine with the win. I know we can still draft well with a lower pick. But that doesn't mean a top-2 or top-3 pick isn't a "good thing" to have - especially for a team that is experiencing a horrific season like we are. We now have 3 wins, and beat a 1-win team on Sunday. Yippee for us. But in April, after our few meager wins, we will be drafting so that we can climb out of the NFCN cellar. A high draft pick - in every round of the draft - will be nice. It's a "good thing" to have.
No we shouldn't "throw" games to get the high pick. But I figure that if you're gonna suck, my hope is that at least we get something positive out of a horrific year like this. That's my 2-cents anyway.
JABF. THat pretty much sums up my position also. I agree with everything, and I would like to add just one point. Yes, I agree that most of the best players are at the top and they are limited and every one taken means one less to take. At the same time, I know there are great players hiding lower in the draft. The point I want to make however is "hiding". It is easy to point out the guys that were taken lower in the draft and are hall of famers. It is easy only because it is after the fact. Those guys were hiding because no one knew they were there. If teams knew that they would be as good as they were, they would have also been at the beginning of the first round and gone.
Will there be more this year? sure. There are always a few. But to say it is the GMs job to find them, well, yeah... I agree. But when history consistently shows all 32 missing these guys and letting them get to the lower rounds, is it really fair to say that Pace needs to find them? He probably won't. So again, just like Prescott, they will be a lucky pick for someone. The best known bets (and sometimes they fail too) are at the top of the draft. To think anything else is just trying to rationalize an argument.
And the higher draft pick position can pay off in ALL rounds. Not just the 1st round. If a guy does fall to a later round than what was anticipated, it's mighty good to be able to grab that guy before another team has the opportunity to draft him ahead of us in that round.
Obviously no team enters a season wanting to have a living nightmare like we have had this year. But if a season does end up bad (or in our case a number of seasons) then it is a benefit to have a priority draft position to restock the cupboard. It is a nice opportunity for us. We need all the help we can get right now, IMHO.
JABF. THat pretty much sums up my position also. I agree with everything, and I would like to add just one point. Yes, I agree that most of the best players are at the top and they are limited and every one taken means one less to take. At the same time, I know there are great players hiding lower in the draft. The point I want to make however is "hiding". It is easy to point out the guys that were taken lower in the draft and are hall of famers. It is easy only because it is after the fact. Those guys were hiding because no one knew they were there. If teams knew that they would be as good as they were, they would have also been at the beginning of the first round and gone.
Will there be more this year? sure. There are always a few. But to say it is the GMs job to find them, well, yeah... I agree. But when history consistently shows all 32 missing these guys and letting them get to the lower rounds, is it really fair to say that Pace needs to find them? He probably won't. So again, just like Prescott, they will be a lucky pick for someone. The best known bets (and sometimes they fail too) are at the top of the draft. To think anything else is just trying to rationalize an argument.
And the higher draft pick position can pay off in ALL rounds. Not just the 1st round. If a guy does fall to a later round than what was anticipated, it's mighty good to be able to grab that guy before another team has the opportunity to draft him ahead of us in that round.
Obviously no team enters a season wanting to have a living nightmare like we have had this year. But if a season does end up bad (or in our case a number of seasons) then it is a benefit to have a priority draft position to restock the cupboard. It is a nice opportunity for us. We need all the help we can get right now, IMHO.
I think people are twisting this a bit. Nobody (that I know of anyway) was saying the team should purposely lose games. They were saying that if the team is going to be epic bad, then hopefully we would at least get a top-2 or 3 draft pick out of this horrific season.
This is how the NFL is set up. It tries to help bad teams get competitive again by awarding them higher draft picks.
No sane Bears fans wants the team to suck. But once the team does suck, then some fans do look forward to getting an opportunity to pick one of the very best players coming out of college.
I'm now reading about how the Patriots got Brady in the 6th round... like it doesn't mean squat where you draft on draft day. I've got news for folks, we are not getting a Tom Brady level QB in the 6th round of this coming draft.
I deeply enjoyed the game on Sunday. I love how the young players are making improvements. But there is nothing inherently evil in wanting a high draft pick to help our team get better. And I've said this many times on this board. That high draft pick isn't just a "first round thing" because it also means you pick high in EVERY round of the ENTIRE draft. That is a "good thing" right?
It kind of pisses me off how some are trying to twist this. Like fans want the team to throw games or something.
There is no twisting it. Motm seriously wants the Bears to lose on purpose and he honestly believes that other teams in the NFL do it on purpose. Just have him tell you about how the Colts lost on purpose to get Luck.
I don't think anyone else feels this way at all but I know motm feels this way as he's said it numerous times.
I think people are twisting this a bit. Nobody (that I know of anyway) was saying the team should purposely lose games. They were saying that if the team is going to be epic bad, then hopefully we would at least get a top-2 or 3 draft pick out of this horrific season.
This is how the NFL is set up. It tries to help bad teams get competitive again by awarding them higher draft picks.
No sane Bears fans wants the team to suck. But once the team does suck, then some fans do look forward to getting an opportunity to pick one of the very best players coming out of college.
I'm now reading about how the Patriots got Brady in the 6th round... like it doesn't mean squat where you draft on draft day. I've got news for folks, we are not getting a Tom Brady level QB in the 6th round of this coming draft.
I deeply enjoyed the game on Sunday. I love how the young players are making improvements. But there is nothing inherently evil in wanting a high draft pick to help our team get better. And I've said this many times on this board. That high draft pick isn't just a "first round thing" because it also means you pick high in EVERY round of the ENTIRE draft. That is a "good thing" right?
It kind of pisses me off how some are trying to twist this. Like fans want the team to throw games or something.
There is no twisting it. Motm seriously wants the Bears to lose on purpose and he honestly believes that other teams in the NFL do it on purpose. Just have him tell you about how the Colts lost on purpose to get Luck.
I don't think anyone else feels this way at all but I know motm feels this way as he's said it numerous times.
Okay, good to know. I thought some of those posts were directed at BIH and me. All I could think of is that there is no downside to having a higher draft pick in April - if you are gonna have a crappy losing year.
Higher Draft Position > Lower Draft Position
LOL, I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I kept thinking, what's wrong with that? Otherwise just trade your top draft picks away for a slew of 6th and 7th round picks and load up on future Hall of Famers like the Pats did with Tom Brady. Like it's that easy. Right?
LOL, I was beginning to wonder if the basic laws of science - and the NFL - had changed on me this year without my knowing it :-)
