Expect that isnt what is being talked about. Higher ups told him to hire Fox. Now if they told him to hire an experienced vcoach and he picked Fox, thats a different story. If he was told hire Fox, he's in the clear. He can walk into the post-season meetings and say I told you so.
I figure he's the GM. This is his team. These are his coaches. These are his players. And I like that old NFL saying, "You are who your record says you are." We are a winless team, coming off of a 6-win season. Not good. Pace has to own some of that. He is the GM.
I agree with ya Soul about FO vs Coaching staff. Thou I do wonder how much allegiance does Fangio really have for Fox. They are both defensive minded BUT Fangio was with the 49ers so he hasn't exactly built a great bond with Fox. Fangio could also be smelling what Pace is cooking (lol not sure why mind went there) and sees the possiblity of himself getting a shot at the HC title. Fang must have a few Offensive minded pals that he can make a pitch too.. I feel silly talking about all this, after all we are only 3 games into the season and my new found optimism wants me to believe we can still turn around this lost ship.
Ha ha, then you have more optimism than I do Bob. If it happens great but I still wouldn't count on any long term sustained success under Fox. People keep talking about Cutlers age and starting over with a 33 year old QB which is not really old for a QB by NFL standards. Some QBs never mature and "get it" 'til they are 30 or more and Cutler seems to be one of them. He's improved in many ways for those who care to see it.
But I digress. What about starting over with a 62 year old HC who'll be 64 when this deal runs out. Would the Bears even consider an extension unless by some miracle he wins a SB? Halas coached 'til he was 72 but Fox is no GSH and after 1963 it was all downhill anyway and he knew it. Fox is more of an administrator and delagator now than he is a hands on guy anyway and that may be a lot of the problem.
He seems very out of touch with what's really happening which IMHO is what's behind a lot of his evasive answers. They're evasive because he simply doesn't know the correct answer to give. There are those who feel he wields too much power and respect to be let go an all I can hope for it that our young GM has some stones and like John Elway did simply tell him he's not in his long term plans much like I'm sure Fox told Matt Forte.
If true that the higher-ups told Pace he had to hire Fox, this would be the third time in a row that an incoming GM was stuck with a guy he didn't want. Angelo was fored to hangon to Jureon, Emery to Lovie and now Pace with Fox. What was successful about the first two times that made the McCaskys think this was a good idea?
I've been ranting about Fox since he got hired, but a little bity tiny part of me us starting to feel bad for the guy. Tiny part, Soul, a tiny tiny tiny tiny part. I've mentioned MotM facts on various platforms and was getting ready to post that again. He's a media creation as a HC who got lucky with elite pass rushers and QBs he signed as FAs. Out side of that....nothing. He's Lovie Smith.
Except believe it or not bb I actually find Lovie more endearing and more human and Foxy more true to his name being very crafty, political to a fault, and manipulative and I dislike that type of personality a lot. You're very right about the media creation part and he's cultivated that well but his rep as a turn around artist is far more myth than anything.
Actually his career in Carolina and Lovie's in Chicago tend to parallel one another quite closely except Lovie actually had a better W/L record.
This tendency of the Bears to hire GMs while at least initially limiting the scope of their power is annoying because any top shelf NFL executive would never agree to that and that's what whoever was yelling about in the Kaplan interview was saying. So the Bears always end up with relative newbies desperate for that step up and bigger paycheck. Waddle nailed it when he parodied Pace saying hey honey we're going to Chicago and maybe it works and maybe it doesn't but one way or another I'm getting paid big money.
But I would also offer a word of caution. If some think Cutler is a coach killer the Bears organization is far better at being GM killers. JA is nobody and Emery is just a scout again. That's why I if I was his age and it the same position I would distance myself from Fox now and face down Phillips and GMcC with his demand to hire his own HC. Then they have to choose between him or Fox and one way or another Pace wins.
If they say no he leaves and at age 39 he's still on a fast track to another top personnel or GM job. Then maybe Foxy sweet talks them into being his own GM and he either wins or he sinks them even deeper into an abyss like Mikey and Emery did and you know. It will serve them right for being and remaining so God damn football stupid for so long. Jeezus the old man must be turning over in his grave again about now.
There is undoubtedly immense pressure on everyone after the winless start to the season. Under that kind of pressure it is understandable that cracks appear on the team. Pace and Fox need to sit down privately and clear the air - and finish this season as best they can. If they don't, then both may end up being gone, sooner rather than later. Pace isn't 100% safe here, and Fox sure as heck isn't.
Pace doesn't survive a Fox firing without taking on significant collateral damage himself - because Fox was HIS hire. Having to fire Fox would be a huge setback for this team - probably a few years due to the new coach will have his own schemes and need the people to perform in the new schemes. We've seen this movie before and it ends ugly for the team. Painful.
Hmm, did you actually listen to the Kaplan interview or miss what we've been posting.
According to what Kaplan said Fox was NOT his hire. The offer of the GM job was conditional on him accepting Fox as his HC because that's what Accorsi recommended. From what Kaplan said Pace preferred Todd Bowles.
Other than that I don't agree with you on much else here either. Sorry.
I liked the Fox hire originally, mostly due to his success in the past but he's wearing on me. If things continue they way they are I would be just fine with him being gone. I'm not so sure I would even wait till the end of the season to replace Loggains because he is clueless.
I still like Pace and would like to see what he can do.
Expect that isnt what is being talked about. Higher ups told him to hire Fox. Now if they told him to hire an experienced vcoach and he picked Fox, thats a different story. If he was told hire Fox, he's in the clear. He can walk into the post-season meetings and say I told you so.
I figure he's the GM. This is his team. These are his coaches. These are his players. And I like that old NFL saying, "You are who your record says you are." We are a winless team, coming off of a 6-win season. Not good. Pace has to own some of that. He is the GM.
But....but, but, but you may be figuring wrong because with both the last two GM hires the Bears saddled their new GM with their current coach thereby limiting the scope of his authority at least initially so there most certainly is a precedent for just that within this organization. Two in fact.
If that is or was the case they may also have conferred more power on Fox as far as personnel decisions go and even if they had not given it specifically I know Fox and he will most certainly play it assumptively and usurp as much of it as he can. I do believe that's what's happened here and it's creating a rift.
Let me add some Denver insight to this.
Somewhat grudgingly after first declining it at Pat Bowlen's request in 2011 John Elway became the Broncos Executive VP and defacto GM. So he was a newbie GM paired with the old pro John Fox as his HC and he had great respect for Fox......then. That all changed as time passed and they disagreed more and more on personnel and Fox's ultra conservative approach to coaching. It got them wins and it got them to a SB but not a win.
Well what do we have here now but the exact same model of how Fox was paired with Elway only it's Pace taking on Elway's role and much the same as in Denver in year two there's a disconnect in the long term views and planning between the two beginning. I'd bet my britches on it JABF. The big difference here is Fox doesn't have Manning, Gase or McCoy, or Elway's bank roll and willingness to spend on top FA talent and we aren't winning.
The Bronco organization made John Fox's rep not the other way around. Now....you still want him?
EDIT: It was also Fox who selected his coaching staff not Pace so those aren't really HIS coaches either.
Everything I have read indicated Pace hired Fox with full control over the choice. Fox is Pace's man. Nobody else, unless we are into conspiracy's here. That said, most GM's get more than one swing at hiring a HC. I would expect Pace to get another try at hiring us a good one.
Going around and doing a bit of research of Fox its surprising how much Manning saved his career.
- Fox's record without Manning was ( 87 wins - 92 loses )
- Fox has never had a back-to-back winning seasons as HC except when he has had Manning
- Fox has only put up 3 winning seasons as HC without Manning
- After putting up 1300 yards and 11 TD's as one of Mannings Favorite receivers, Fox let him walk to FA and got nothing when the Jets picked him up.
- After an 11 sack, pro-bowl season, Fox let Peppers walk to FA. The Panthers then went on to have their worst defense since Fox took over. Dropping from #9 overall to #26.
- He was also part of the brain-trust that traded their first round pick in 2010 to the 49ers for their 2nd and 4th round picks the year before.
- His best offense ever - without Manning - was 7th in the NFL. But mostly, with Carolina, they hovered in the bottom half on the NFL including: 26th in 2007, 27th in 2006, 30th in 2002, and 32 (worst) in 2011. So our 30th ranked O last year was not an anomaly.
After seeing this do you guys really want Fox here? I'm honestly thinking Pace was forced by Fox to drop some of these players. I wonder how much of the first round picks were even Pace's real choice?
Why is it that he can hit a homerun on our 2nd round picks twice yet signing huge projects in the first. I think there is more going on upstairs than what we know.
Not sure, but he'll Pace may have even let Forte, Slauson go to make it harder on Fox. Regardless of whether Fox was initially Paces guy, they seemed to be working together fine. Either the draft or personnel decisions changed that. Something is messed up.
Yes it is and I think the Forte thing is on Fox. Here in Denver Fox wanted to move on from Manning to Osweiler. But....Elway being the old HOF QB he was wanted to see Manning get that last SB win just like he got. That was another reason why Fox was ousted and Kubiak hired. Elway can tell Kubiak what he wants and he gets it which is why Osweiler did not play in the SB and somewhat offended by it all and his contract offer left. Elway wants to win but he's also an arrogant dikhead who pisses people off and doesn't really care if he does.
That's why even after praising him earlier in the year Fox could just as easily bench him or push Pace to trade him. I've already said many time Fox is not the patient sort and he's used to getting his way which why he eventually butted heads with Elway whose also used to getting his way and Elway won. Basically Fox is kind of schizoid HC who if left with too much control will end up having a GM chasing his tail but find ways to make it look like their fault. He's very manipulative (fits with the secrecy) and he's a big time rationalizer. Eg; "I didn't challenge that 3rd and 1 because you never win them".
This is six years now I've been watching this guy coach a team I follow so I do have some instinctive feelings about him to go along with some pure unarguable facts.
Everything I have read indicated Pace hired Fox with full control over the choice. Fox is Pace's man. Nobody else, unless we are into conspiracy's here. That said, most GM's get more than one swing at hiring a HC. I would expect Pace to get another try at hiring us a good one.
No problem. Believe whatever you like. I do, I disagree with you, and I've told you why. If you think you know John Fox better than I do that's OK too. You may be right or you may not and eventually we'll know.
Everything I have read indicated Pace hired Fox with full control over the choice. Fox is Pace's man. Nobody else, unless we are into conspiracy's here. That said, most GM's get more than one swing at hiring a HC. I would expect Pace to get another try at hiring us a good one.
No problem. Believe whatever you like. I do, I disagree with you, and I've told you why. If you think you know John Fox better than I do that's OK too. You may be right or you may not and eventually we'll know.
I'm not questioning your knowledge of John Fox. But I am just saying there is no evidence that Pace was forced to hire Fox.
