Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course

butkus3595
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Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course Dec 23, 2016 8:55:23 GMT -6 JABF and blueshoes like this

Post by butkus3595 on Dec 23, 2016 8:55:23 GMT -6

Dec 23, 2016 0:31:30 GMT -6 germansbombedph said:

Dec 22, 2016 9:09:04 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

What if I walk out of my house and get hit by a bus? We could play the what if game all day long. The bottom line is this, Fox has had success in this league as a DC, that is not debatable. He knows defense as well as the best of them. He has a history of being able to hire very good assistants. That is not debatable. The HC's job is to be an oversee'er of his staff and be the final voice. If you hire qualified people, you let those qualified people do their job and you don't worry whether that makes you look like "the weakest of them all".

Basically, you are saying Loggains is a great OC?

We changed Gase to Loggains and have a much worse Offense on the field. We can't put up Points. You can see a real difference in how the OC handled his Job.

You are saying that all Fox has to do is find the perfect Coordinators and everything is fine with him.

Fox has had success that many years ago that it's not the same as you say a Wade Philips has had success. Fox success was years ago in a much different time 15+ years ago. I don't see why we should be happy with mediocre and average results. That's what happens when you hire a mediocre and average 0.5 Coach.

No, I don't like Loggains really to be honest. But we didn't choose to switch from Gase to Loggains. Gase got an HC job, he chose to leave to advance his career. We went with Loggains because he had done some good work with Cutler, but I haven't been in love with the way he calls an offense. That doesn't change the job description of an HC or a CEO however. You hire people to do a job and then you let them do that job. If you need to step in, you step in. If they need to be replaced you replace them. I wouldn't be surprised if Loggains is replaced this year.

As for your last paragraph...huh?! 2014 was 15 plus years ago? Look, if you can't see that this team is devoid of talent and that no coach would win more games with this group thats your issue. If you can't see that Fox is a good coach, thats your issue. I'm not going to revisit the same points over and over and over again with you. It's like some of you refuse to look at what the reality of this team is. It's a team with 18...whoops, nope sorry...19 guys on the IR, two guys suspended for 4 games, a QB starting who was on his couch in September, a tight end I've never heard of, and a secondary with someone new starting in it seemingly every week. Tell me how a team wins with that?

Here's a news flash....there are only 2 active HC's in this league who've been at it as long as Fox has with better winning percentages...and one of them is Bill Belichick, so save the "he's a mediocre coach" bullshit.

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chicago66
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Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course Dec 23, 2016 16:21:32 GMT -6 JABF likes this

Post by chicago66 on Dec 23, 2016 16:21:32 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2016 8:22:47 GMT -6 ptisme said:

I think you're on the right track. I would get rid of Cutler though.

I agree honestly. Keep Fox another year, and Pace a year or two beyond depending on moves between now and then. I like Pace a lot. I'm encouraged by what we've done. We gutted the roster and took a handful of FA's and a small draft class.. added a smaller round of FA's and a fuller draft class and onto the third incoming players with very few resigns necessary outside of Jeffery.

Injuries were phenomenal and Cutler did his thing where he looks good wooed some people. It happens. If anything a mistake on gauging what Gase was? Either way our homegrown talent is better than ever and that's exciting. I'm curious to see what moves will happen this year. I'm really wondering where we'll be drafting, could be pretty high.

EDIT: though I will say if Fox goes I get that, but I do like Fangio and Pace for beyond this year.

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Last Edit: Dec 23, 2016 16:28:59 GMT -6 by chicago66

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Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course Dec 23, 2016 19:36:14 GMT -6 butkus3595 likes this

Post by JABF on Dec 23, 2016 19:36:14 GMT -6

Dec 23, 2016 8:55:23 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Dec 23, 2016 0:31:30 GMT -6 germansbombedph said:

Basically, you are saying Loggains is a great OC?

We changed Gase to Loggains and have a much worse Offense on the field. We can't put up Points. You can see a real difference in how the OC handled his Job.

You are saying that all Fox has to do is find the perfect Coordinators and everything is fine with him.

Fox has had success that many years ago that it's not the same as you say a Wade Philips has had success. Fox success was years ago in a much different time 15+ years ago. I don't see why we should be happy with mediocre and average results. That's what happens when you hire a mediocre and average 0.5 Coach.

No, I don't like Loggains really to be honest. But we didn't choose to switch from Gase to Loggains. Gase got an HC job, he chose to leave to advance his career. We went with Loggains because he had done some good work with Cutler, but I haven't been in love with the way he calls an offense. That doesn't change the job description of an HC or a CEO however. You hire people to do a job and then you let them do that job. If you need to step in, you step in. If they need to be replaced you replace them. I wouldn't be surprised if Loggains is replaced this year.

As for your last paragraph...huh?! 2014 was 15 plus years ago? Look, if you can't see that this team is devoid of talent and that no coach would win more games with this group thats your issue. If you can't see that Fox is a good coach, thats your issue. I'm not going to revisit the same points over and over and over again with you. It's like some of you refuse to look at what the reality of this team is. It's a team with 18...whoops, nope sorry...19 guys on the IR, two guys suspended for 4 games, a QB starting who was on his couch in September, a tight end I've never heard of, and a secondary with someone new starting in it seemingly every week. Tell me how a team wins with that?

Here's a news flash....there are only 2 active HC's in this league who've been at it as long as Fox has with better winning percentages...and one of them is Bill Belichick, so save the "he's a mediocre coach" bullshit.

Eddie Goldman was just announced as going on IR too. The 2016 IR body-count is at 20 now.

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Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course Dec 23, 2016 21:30:50 GMT -6

Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 21:30:50 GMT -6

Dec 21, 2016 15:49:59 GMT -6 JABF said:

Mulligan from the Chicago Tribune:

LINK

Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course

If there was such thing as football feng shui, the Bears' rebuild could be righted in a hurry. The team could easily move the furniture around and change the flow of their energy.

That's the benefit of roster stability. Get everyone back from injury, add another good draft, sign a couple of excellent free agents and maybe a season of inspired defeat can turn into an inspired season.

Even in the context of a losing season, should the Bears put a value on continuity?

It's an argument that could be made when a team with 24 players scheduled to make $1 million or more this year can push a potential division champion like the Packers nearly to overtime with just 11 of those 24 available.

Could anyone beguile the Bears brain trust with the notion that continuity on all fronts would create a newfound strength in depth? Guys forced onto the field one year might be a treasure in reserve the next.

Would they buy the idea a three- to five-win season was simply a form of collective altitude sickness caused by too many guys stepping up a level too quickly? Have the Bears been using tomorrow's solution today?

Continuity is important in all sports, but you really want to achieve it with Cubs-style world domination and not simply maintain status quo on a flawed team. The Bears must be internally debating the issue since they have surprisingly few decisions required at season's end. If free agency starts from within, the Bears have virtually no one to sign.

They could bring Jay Cutler back — he is still under contract — put another franchise tag on Alshon Jeffery and try again next year with the group they thought might contend this season. Unless you consider the future of Lamarr Houston or Eddie Royal crucial, Cutler and Jeffery are what passes for critical decisions.

According to several experienced NFL decision-makers, there are surprisingly few considerations when it comes to making the choice to move on from players.

"When you feel you can get the same production for less, it's time to move on," one said.

"It all comes down to production,'' another said. "What is his production versus his cost? Where are we moving forward? Personality and all that stuff is secondary."

The Bears have a lot more information about players, coaches, management types — everyone in the organization. When considering what to do in terms of effectively firing anyone from Cutler to Jeffery or even coach John Fox, the rule has to be equally simple: If you feel you have made a mistake, move on regardless of cost. If you feel it can work, then carry on regardless of cost.

Cutler counts $16 million against the salary cap next year, but his base salary is $12.5 million. What has sparked the idea of sending him packing is that the dead money on the Bears salary cap drops from $19 million if he were released before this year to just $2 million next season.

Jeffery played this year on a franchise tag that will likely jump from $14.599 million this year to over $17 million if he is tagged again next year. But he cost himself big money with his four-game PED suspension this season, roughly $3.435 million.

The Bears could get a cap credit rollover and effectively get him next year at a cap hit around the same as this season. What's unknown is whether the Bears declined to give him a long-term deal last year because they wanted him to prove something this season.

What is known is that, while Jeffery didn't do enough this year, the guys who would have to replace him did significantly less. When you have as many needs as the Bears, why create another one by getting rid of a potentially big-time playmaker?

If the Bears feel they have a potentially cheap option at quarterback with Matt Barkley, a restricted free agent, they could sign another free agent, make a trade, draft a player or do all those things and feel improved.

Is it better to try and rebuild the rebuild or convince yourself deficiencies at cornerback, safety, offensive tackle and franchise quarterback can be solved from within? Can the Bears harmonize their environment through football feng shui, or would they just be moving around deck chairs on the Titanic?

Chicago Tribune special contributor Mike Mulligan co-hosts "The Mully and Hanley Show" weekdays from 5-9 a.m. on WSCR-AM 670.

It's funny how 10 people can look at the very same events and pull out different things from it to support their beliefs. One can look at the season and find reasons why we should stay the course. There are reasons one can use to support that position. The author makes many points. You can also look at the same events and support the position that to keep the same course that is putting a lackluster offense and a 3 win season out there is ludicrous. There are facts on both side. There are also opinions on both sides. Sometimes one side or the other even dresses opinions in dresses that look like facts.

The bottom line is that there are valid arguments to both sides of this discussion. I don't like what I see and my OPINION is that the trend I see is many of the things I see as disturbing will not get better under Fox. Only time will tell. And whatever side of the fence you are on, next year we can only test one side of the theory. Whatever the Bears decide to do is what will be tested. Whatever could have happened will always be in our hearts as having been the real solution to the dilemma. Unless of course whatever they do kills it and then that stops all discussion. Wouldn't it be nice for once to have the Bears actually pick the right road from all the possible options?

Anyone have odds on this?

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Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course Dec 23, 2016 21:44:25 GMT -6 butkus3595 likes this

Post by JABF on Dec 23, 2016 21:44:25 GMT -6

Dec 23, 2016 21:30:50 GMT -6 @bearsinhouston said:

Dec 21, 2016 15:49:59 GMT -6 JABF said:

Mulligan from the Chicago Tribune:

It's funny how 10 people can look at the very same events and pull out different things from it to support their beliefs. One can look at the season and find reasons why we should stay the course. There are reasons one can use to support that position. The author makes many points. You can also look at the same events and support the position that to keep the same course that is putting a lackluster offense and a 3 win season out there is ludicrous. There are facts on both side. There are also opinions on both sides. Sometimes one side or the other even dresses opinions in dresses that look like facts.

The bottom line is that there are valid arguments to both sides of this discussion. I don't like what I see and my OPINION is that the trend I see is many of the things I see as disturbing will not get better under Fox. Only time will tell. And whatever side of the fence you are on, next year we can only test one side of the theory. Whatever the Bears decide to do is what will be tested. Whatever could have happened will always be in our hearts as having been the real solution to the dilemma. Unless of course whatever they do kills it and then that stops all discussion. Wouldn't it be nice for once to have the Bears actually pick the right road from all the possible options?

Anyone have odds on this?

My gut feeling is that the very fact we will have our starters healthy, and a 3rd draft and free agency, it will equate to a much better season no matter who the head coach is. We are a team of backups this season, and still being competitive against some very good teams. Think about what that looks like next season with starters starting, and an infusion of talent through the draft and free agency.

I really don't expect to see a season with this level of serious Bears injuries in my lifetime. I don't. Whomever coaches the Bears next season, he should do much better. That's my gut feeling.

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Last Edit: Dec 23, 2016 21:45:50 GMT -6 by JABF

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butkus3595
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Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course Dec 23, 2016 22:27:54 GMT -6 JABF likes this

Post by butkus3595 on Dec 23, 2016 22:27:54 GMT -6

Dec 23, 2016 21:44:25 GMT -6 JABF said:

Dec 23, 2016 21:30:50 GMT -6 @bearsinhouston said:

It's funny how 10 people can look at the very same events and pull out different things from it to support their beliefs. One can look at the season and find reasons why we should stay the course. There are reasons one can use to support that position. The author makes many points. You can also look at the same events and support the position that to keep the same course that is putting a lackluster offense and a 3 win season out there is ludicrous. There are facts on both side. There are also opinions on both sides. Sometimes one side or the other even dresses opinions in dresses that look like facts.

The bottom line is that there are valid arguments to both sides of this discussion. I don't like what I see and my OPINION is that the trend I see is many of the things I see as disturbing will not get better under Fox. Only time will tell. And whatever side of the fence you are on, next year we can only test one side of the theory. Whatever the Bears decide to do is what will be tested. Whatever could have happened will always be in our hearts as having been the real solution to the dilemma. Unless of course whatever they do kills it and then that stops all discussion. Wouldn't it be nice for once to have the Bears actually pick the right road from all the possible options?

Anyone have odds on this?

My gut feeling is that the very fact we will have our starters healthy, and a 3rd draft and free agency, it will equate to a much better season no matter who the head coach is. We are a team of backups this season, and still being competitive against some very good teams. Think about what that looks like next season with starters starting, and an infusion of talent through the draft and free agency.

I really don't expect to see a season with this level of serious Bears injuries in my lifetime. I don't. Whomever coaches the Bears next season, he should do much better. That's my gut feeling.

And then we can again fall prey to outcome bias the fallacy of the pre-determined outcome like we are this year. People thought Tom Coughlin wasn't a god coach anymore...I bet he wishes the GM would have spent 200 million on the defense when he was the coach there.

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blueshoes
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Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course Dec 24, 2016 0:18:58 GMT -6 JABF and butkus3595 like this

Post by blueshoes on Dec 24, 2016 0:18:58 GMT -6

Dec 23, 2016 22:27:54 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Dec 23, 2016 21:44:25 GMT -6 JABF said:

My gut feeling is that the very fact we will have our starters healthy, and a 3rd draft and free agency, it will equate to a much better season no matter who the head coach is. We are a team of backups this season, and still being competitive against some very good teams. Think about what that looks like next season with starters starting, and an infusion of talent through the draft and free agency.

I really don't expect to see a season with this level of serious Bears injuries in my lifetime. I don't. Whomever coaches the Bears next season, he should do much better. That's my gut feeling.

And then we can again fall prey to outcome bias the fallacy of the pre-determined outcome like we are this year. People thought Tom Coughlin wasn't a god coach anymore...I bet he wishes the GM would have spent 200 million on the defense when he was the coach there.

Yep there were alot of people calling for his scalp - then OOPS , darn he went out and won a Super Bowl - then they slid a little again , and the nay-sayers were out again - then OOPS , darn , he went out and won another one .

Yin - Yang ...... Yin- Yang .

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Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course Dec 24, 2016 10:16:22 GMT -6 blueshoes likes this

Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 10:16:22 GMT -6

Dec 24, 2016 0:18:58 GMT -6 blueshoes said:

Dec 23, 2016 22:27:54 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

And then we can again fall prey to outcome bias the fallacy of the pre-determined outcome like we are this year. People thought Tom Coughlin wasn't a god coach anymore...I bet he wishes the GM would have spent 200 million on the defense when he was the coach there.

Yep there were alot of people calling for his scalp - then OOPS , darn he went out and won a Super Bowl - then they slid a little again , and the nay-sayers were out again - then OOPS , darn , he went out and won another one .

Yin - Yang ...... Yin- Yang .

I don't want to hear about your Ying-Yang

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Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course Dec 24, 2016 17:44:09 GMT -6

Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 17:44:09 GMT -6

Maybe it's too late to stay on course. Those rocks ahead are now the bottom of the good ship John Fox's Bears. That's OK though. The water is shallow here so I think they can all wade ashore. Even Fox can't drown unless someone can get to him and hold his head under.......any volunteers?

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Here's a radical idea: Maybe Bears should stay the course

Post by butkus3595 on Dec 23, 2016 8:55:23 GMT -6

Post by chicago66 on Dec 23, 2016 16:21:32 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Dec 23, 2016 19:36:14 GMT -6

Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 21:30:50 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Dec 23, 2016 21:44:25 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Dec 23, 2016 22:27:54 GMT -6

Post by blueshoes on Dec 24, 2016 0:18:58 GMT -6

Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 10:16:22 GMT -6

Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 17:44:09 GMT -6