D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster.

davidl
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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster. Jun 14, 2023 8:56:31 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Jun 14, 2023 8:56:31 GMT -6

Jun 14, 2023 7:55:10 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Jun 14, 2023 7:26:02 GMT -6 davidl said:

There are plenty of guys who can run 40 yards 4.4 but are not great — or even good — WRs. The Bears with Poles have had so many of them, I can hardly count.

Thats true...the only problem is DJ Moore is an ELITE receiver...as I've already pointed out.

That wasn’t a comment about Moore.

An ELITE route runner is damn hard to cover even if he doesn’t have 4.4 speed. I have seen estimates that JSN is around 4.5 to 4.6. Irrelevant. Same for Largent, Edelman, etc.

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Last Edit: Jun 14, 2023 9:35:12 GMT -6 by davidl

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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster. Jun 14, 2023 10:43:58 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jun 14, 2023 10:43:58 GMT -6

Jun 14, 2023 8:56:31 GMT -6 davidl said:

Jun 14, 2023 7:55:10 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Thats true...the only problem is DJ Moore is an ELITE receiver...as I've already pointed out.

That wasn’t a comment about Moore.

An ELITE route runner is damn hard to cover even if he doesn’t have 4.4 speed. I have seen estimates that JSN is around 4.5 to 4.6. Irrelevant. Same for Largent, Edelman, etc.

Moore is who we're talking about on the Bears...

Anyway, JSN ran a 4.48 at his pro day...which is hand timed, so you can add some time to that to figure out what it would have been if it were laser timed like at the Combine(usually anywhere from .1 to .25 seconds). Either way, not slow. Edelman ran a 4.51 at the combine...he's not slow. I've already told you what Largents 40 time was...it was MUCH slower.

Speed, however, is not irrelevant. I can argue both for and against the 40 yard dash, but at the end of the day speed kills and all teams want as much of it as they can get. Largent, who ran a 4.7 back in the 70's, was basically around average if you consider the average 40 yard dash time for receivers in the 80's was around 4.6. He wasn't fast back then, but he wasn't necessarily slow. In todays game we've got defensive tackles running faster than that. When the guy covering you is 3 tenths of a second faster than you, I don't really care how well you run your routes. Its just a totally different game with a different breed of athlete. Its silly to think any players from before the mid to late 80's would play in todays game barring some exceptions.

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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster. Jun 14, 2023 11:02:17 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Jun 14, 2023 11:02:17 GMT -6

Jun 14, 2023 10:43:58 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Jun 14, 2023 8:56:31 GMT -6 davidl said:

That wasn’t a comment about Moore.

An ELITE route runner is damn hard to cover even if he doesn’t have 4.4 speed. I have seen estimates that JSN is around 4.5 to 4.6. Irrelevant. Same for Largent, Edelman, etc.

Moore is who we're talking about on the Bears...

Anyway, JSN ran a 4.48 at his pro day...which is hand timed, so you can add some time to that to figure out what it would have been if it were laser timed like at the Combine(usually anywhere from .1 to .25 seconds). Either way, not slow. Edelman ran a 4.51 at the combine...he's not slow. I've already told you what Largents 40 time was...it was MUCH slower.

Speed, however, is not irrelevant. I can argue both for and against the 40 yard dash, but at the end of the day speed kills and all teams want as much of it as they can get. Largent, who ran a 4.7 back in the 70's, was basically around average if you consider the average 40 yard dash time for receivers in the 80's was around 4.6. He wasn't fast back then, but he wasn't necessarily slow. In todays game we've got defensive tackles running faster than that. When the guy covering you is 3 tenths of a second faster than you, I don't really care how well you run your routes. Its just a totally different game with a different breed of athlete. Its silly to think any players from before the mid to late 80's would play in todays game barring some exceptions.

Jerry Rice was around 4.6 and he didn’t have a problem with anybody. Largent was running against cornerbacks who were straight line faster than him every week but not as quick out of the breaks. I watched all those games. Same is true for Cooper Kupp today, and he is 4.62. Nearly all CBs can beat him in the 40.

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butkus3595
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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster. Jun 14, 2023 18:38:36 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jun 14, 2023 18:38:36 GMT -6

Jun 14, 2023 11:02:17 GMT -6 davidl said:

Jun 14, 2023 10:43:58 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Moore is who we're talking about on the Bears...

Anyway, JSN ran a 4.48 at his pro day...which is hand timed, so you can add some time to that to figure out what it would have been if it were laser timed like at the Combine(usually anywhere from .1 to .25 seconds). Either way, not slow. Edelman ran a 4.51 at the combine...he's not slow. I've already told you what Largents 40 time was...it was MUCH slower.

Speed, however, is not irrelevant. I can argue both for and against the 40 yard dash, but at the end of the day speed kills and all teams want as much of it as they can get. Largent, who ran a 4.7 back in the 70's, was basically around average if you consider the average 40 yard dash time for receivers in the 80's was around 4.6. He wasn't fast back then, but he wasn't necessarily slow. In todays game we've got defensive tackles running faster than that. When the guy covering you is 3 tenths of a second faster than you, I don't really care how well you run your routes. Its just a totally different game with a different breed of athlete. Its silly to think any players from before the mid to late 80's would play in todays game barring some exceptions.

Jerry Rice was around 4.6 and he didn’t have a problem with anybody. Largent was running against cornerbacks who were straight line faster than him every week but not as quick out of the breaks. I watched all those games. Same is true for Cooper Kupp today, and he is 4.62. Nearly all CBs can beat him in the 40.

Again, you're not taking into account what the average 40 times were for that time period. You also have ZERO clue what the combine was like when Rice ran his 40. It was nothing like it was today. Here's a history lesson for you...cause it seems you forgot I actually help guys run faster 40's for a living: The 1985 NFL Combine took place outdoors on the grass practice fields of Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. That spot was chosen because it got historically low levels of rain in the month of January. Except in 85, that wasn't the case. It rained for 2 days of the combine. So you had guys running drills out on wet, soggy grass outdoors and in very cold weather. You're not going to run a fast time on wet, soggy grass because you're not going to get great grip on the surface and you're going to slip out on your start. Beyond that, EVERYONE runs slower in colder weather. The warmer it is, the faster you'll run. So Jerry Rice was NOT REALLY a 4.6 40 player. He was MUCH faster.

As for your other example, Kupp...he is also FAST. He was the fastest clocked receiver at the Senior Bowl, reaching 20.7 MPH. He is not a 4.62 player in reality....HE IS FAST.

Lastly, here's another history lesson for you. Corners in the 70's and early to mid 80's were generally pretty big because they played bump and run and were expected to be stout in run support. Hell, Lester Hayes had 2 inches and 20 pounds on Largent. Mike Haynes had 3 inches and 15 pounds on Largent. Eric Harris had 4 inches and 15 pounds on Largent. I could go on and on with how big corners were back then.

Again...this is what I do to make MONEY...so what else ya got?

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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster. Jun 14, 2023 21:08:11 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Jun 14, 2023 21:08:11 GMT -6

Jun 14, 2023 18:38:36 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Jun 14, 2023 11:02:17 GMT -6 davidl said:

Jerry Rice was around 4.6 and he didn’t have a problem with anybody. Largent was running against cornerbacks who were straight line faster than him every week but not as quick out of the breaks. I watched all those games. Same is true for Cooper Kupp today, and he is 4.62. Nearly all CBs can beat him in the 40.

Again, you're not taking into account what the average 40 times were for that time period. You also have ZERO clue what the combine was like when Rice ran his 40. It was nothing like it was today. Here's a history lesson for you...cause it seems you forgot I actually help guys run faster 40's for a living: The 1985 NFL Combine took place outdoors on the grass practice fields of Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. That spot was chosen because it got historically low levels of rain in the month of January. Except in 85, that wasn't the case. It rained for 2 days of the combine. So you had guys running drills out on wet, soggy grass outdoors and in very cold weather. You're not going to run a fast time on wet, soggy grass because you're not going to get great grip on the surface and you're going to slip out on your start. Beyond that, EVERYONE runs slower in colder weather. The warmer it is, the faster you'll run. So Jerry Rice was NOT REALLY a 4.6 40 player. He was MUCH faster.

As for your other example, Kupp...he is also FAST. He was the fastest clocked receiver at the Senior Bowl, reaching 20.7 MPH. He is not a 4.62 player in reality....HE IS FAST.

Lastly, here's another history lesson for you. Corners in the 70's and early to mid 80's were generally pretty big because they played bump and run and were expected to be stout in run support. Hell, Lester Hayes had 2 inches and 20 pounds on Largent. Mike Haynes had 3 inches and 15 pounds on Largent. Eric Harris had 4 inches and 15 pounds on Largent. I could go on and on with how big corners were back then.

Again...this is what I do to make MONEY...so what else ya got?

So, Rice and Kupp are faster than their combine times, but not Largent? Why? How many of his games did you actually watch? What surface did he run on for his 40 time? You have all the answers. Haynes and Harris both ran under 4.5. There were plenty of other damn fast corners in the 1980’s. Ever hear of Rod Woodson or Darrell Green, for example.

Nearly all the corners covering JSN will be as fast or faster than him, too, but that won’t save them, either. Elite route running trumps speed, if the QB and WR have their timing in sync. I’ve been observing that for about 60 years, but I’m not getting paid to notice.

Edit: I just read an interesting quote from Fred Belitnikoff on this topic. He agrees with me, and he says he ran the 40 in 4.7.

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Last Edit: Jun 14, 2023 22:39:09 GMT -6 by davidl

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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster. Jun 15, 2023 6:29:27 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Jun 15, 2023 6:29:27 GMT -6

Jun 14, 2023 21:08:11 GMT -6 davidl said:

Jun 14, 2023 18:38:36 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Again, you're not taking into account what the average 40 times were for that time period. You also have ZERO clue what the combine was like when Rice ran his 40. It was nothing like it was today. Here's a history lesson for you...cause it seems you forgot I actually help guys run faster 40's for a living: The 1985 NFL Combine took place outdoors on the grass practice fields of Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. That spot was chosen because it got historically low levels of rain in the month of January. Except in 85, that wasn't the case. It rained for 2 days of the combine. So you had guys running drills out on wet, soggy grass outdoors and in very cold weather. You're not going to run a fast time on wet, soggy grass because you're not going to get great grip on the surface and you're going to slip out on your start. Beyond that, EVERYONE runs slower in colder weather. The warmer it is, the faster you'll run. So Jerry Rice was NOT REALLY a 4.6 40 player. He was MUCH faster.

As for your other example, Kupp...he is also FAST. He was the fastest clocked receiver at the Senior Bowl, reaching 20.7 MPH. He is not a 4.62 player in reality....HE IS FAST.

Lastly, here's another history lesson for you. Corners in the 70's and early to mid 80's were generally pretty big because they played bump and run and were expected to be stout in run support. Hell, Lester Hayes had 2 inches and 20 pounds on Largent. Mike Haynes had 3 inches and 15 pounds on Largent. Eric Harris had 4 inches and 15 pounds on Largent. I could go on and on with how big corners were back then.

Again...this is what I do to make MONEY...so what else ya got?

So, Rice and Kupp are faster than their combine times, but not Largent? Why? How many of his games did you actually watch? What surface did he run on for his 40 time? You have all the answers. Haynes and Harris both ran under 4.5. There were plenty of other damn fast corners in the 1980’s. Ever hear of Rod Woodson or Darrell Green, for example.

Nearly all the corners covering JSN will be as fast or faster than him, too, but that won’t save them, either. Elite route running trumps speed, if the QB and WR have their timing in sync. I’ve been observing that for about 60 years, but I’m not getting paid to notice.

Edit: I just read an interesting quote from Fred Belitnikoff on this topic. He agrees with me, and he says he ran the 40 in 4.7.

Those are two of my favorite receivers from the past - Steve Largent and Fred Biletnikoff. I absolutely loved watching them play. I think what stood out to me about both of them was that they were NOT first round draft picks or even close to that. Largent was a 4th round pick. Fred was 3rd round. Like today's game with Cooper Kupp being a 3rd round draft pick.

So many of the "great ones" in football were not 1st round draft picks. But today we talk like the draft talent ends after the first round ends. That is just not true. Half of the first round picks end up busts. Heisman winners can bust. So many of these "darlings of the media" from college stardom - don't fulfill the hype at the NFL level.

JSN may bust.

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davidl
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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster. Jun 15, 2023 7:07:41 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Jun 15, 2023 7:07:41 GMT -6

Jun 15, 2023 6:29:27 GMT -6 JABF said:

Jun 14, 2023 21:08:11 GMT -6 davidl said:

So, Rice and Kupp are faster than their combine times, but not Largent? Why? How many of his games did you actually watch? What surface did he run on for his 40 time? You have all the answers. Haynes and Harris both ran under 4.5. There were plenty of other damn fast corners in the 1980’s. Ever hear of Rod Woodson or Darrell Green, for example.

Nearly all the corners covering JSN will be as fast or faster than him, too, but that won’t save them, either. Elite route running trumps speed, if the QB and WR have their timing in sync. I’ve been observing that for about 60 years, but I’m not getting paid to notice.

Edit: I just read an interesting quote from Fred Belitnikoff on this topic. He agrees with me, and he says he ran the 40 in 4.7.

Those are two of my favorite receivers from the past - Steve Largent and Fred Biletnikoff. I absolutely loved watching them play. I think what stood out to me about both of them was that they were NOT first round draft picks or even close to that. Largent was a 4th round pick. Fred was 3rd round. Like today's game with Cooper Kupp being a 3rd round draft pick.

So many of the "great ones" in football were not 1st round draft picks. But today we talk like the draft talent ends after the first round ends. That is just not true. Half of the first round picks end up busts. Heisman winners can bust. So many of these "darlings of the media" from college stardom - don't fulfill the hype at the NFL level.

JSN may bust.

I believe my own eyes and Pete Carroll. JSN is going to be a star in the NFL for years.

It is the pure speed guys who can’t run routes worth a damn who get drafted high and bust at the NFL level. JSN is not one of those guys. You are going to love watching him as much as Largent and Belitnikoff. Blazing speed gets rewarded in the draft, but precision route running gets rewarded in the NFL. It’s always been true as much in the 1980’s as the 2000’s.

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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster. Jun 15, 2023 8:05:50 GMT -6 AlexM likes this

Post by JABF on Jun 15, 2023 8:05:50 GMT -6

Jun 15, 2023 7:07:41 GMT -6 davidl said:

I believe my own eyes and Pete Carroll. JSN is going to be a star in the NFL for years.

If I had a dime for every time I've heard that "sure thing" comment from fans, I'd be a rich man. I hope he does have a great career. And he very well could. But let's not kid ourselves. Sure things bust all the time at the NFL level. And Pete has been wrong before too - he cost their team a Super Bowl win... just one of many mistakes he's made... And I respect the guy tremendously - but just pointing out that he (like everyone) is not always right.

Here's one thing that will blow your mind. But I'll put it out there anyway. I think there's a 50-50 chance that the Bears' 4th round pick, Tyler Scott, will have a better career than JSN. Not at first because Scott is rough as heck now and needs development time. He was a RB who converted to WR at Cincinnati. But scouting reports have him as an ascending talent. He won't see the field much this first season though. JSN will be a day-1 asset and right now is light-years better than Scott. But I do believe Scott's ceiling is higher than JSN. JMO. But, yes, he was a 4th round pick, like Steve Largent.

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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster. Jun 15, 2023 8:14:52 GMT -6 JABF likes this

Post by davidl on Jun 15, 2023 8:14:52 GMT -6

Jun 15, 2023 8:05:50 GMT -6 JABF said:

Jun 15, 2023 7:07:41 GMT -6 davidl said:

I believe my own eyes and Pete Carroll. JSN is going to be a star in the NFL for years.

If I had a dime for every time I've heard that "sure thing" comment from fans, I'd be a rich man. I hope he does have a great career. And he very well could. But let's not kid ourselves. Sure things bust all the time at the NFL level. And Pete has been wrong before too - he cost their team a Super Bowl win... just one of many mistakes he's made... And I respect the guy tremendously - but just pointing out that he (like everyone) is not always right.

Here's one thing that will blow your mind. But I'll put it out there anyway. I think there's a 50-50 chance that the Bears' 4th round pick, Tyler Scott, will have a better career than JSN. Not at first because Scott is rough as heck now and needs development time. He was a RB who converted to WR at Cincinnati. But scouting reports have him as an ascending talent. He won't see the field much this first season though. JSN will be a day-1 asset and right now is light-years better than Scott. But I do believe Scott's ceiling is higher than JSN. JMO. But, yes, he was a 4th round pick, like Steve Largent.

My prediction is that Scott will replace Mooney by next season, if not sooner. I am dying for a receiver who’s a better route runner than Mooney. That’s why I wanted Hopkins or JSN. Scott may be the guy.

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butkus3595
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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster. Jun 15, 2023 8:16:36 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jun 15, 2023 8:16:36 GMT -6

Jun 14, 2023 21:08:11 GMT -6 davidl said:

Jun 14, 2023 18:38:36 GMT -6 butkus3595 said:

Again, you're not taking into account what the average 40 times were for that time period. You also have ZERO clue what the combine was like when Rice ran his 40. It was nothing like it was today. Here's a history lesson for you...cause it seems you forgot I actually help guys run faster 40's for a living: The 1985 NFL Combine took place outdoors on the grass practice fields of Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. That spot was chosen because it got historically low levels of rain in the month of January. Except in 85, that wasn't the case. It rained for 2 days of the combine. So you had guys running drills out on wet, soggy grass outdoors and in very cold weather. You're not going to run a fast time on wet, soggy grass because you're not going to get great grip on the surface and you're going to slip out on your start. Beyond that, EVERYONE runs slower in colder weather. The warmer it is, the faster you'll run. So Jerry Rice was NOT REALLY a 4.6 40 player. He was MUCH faster.

As for your other example, Kupp...he is also FAST. He was the fastest clocked receiver at the Senior Bowl, reaching 20.7 MPH. He is not a 4.62 player in reality....HE IS FAST.

Lastly, here's another history lesson for you. Corners in the 70's and early to mid 80's were generally pretty big because they played bump and run and were expected to be stout in run support. Hell, Lester Hayes had 2 inches and 20 pounds on Largent. Mike Haynes had 3 inches and 15 pounds on Largent. Eric Harris had 4 inches and 15 pounds on Largent. I could go on and on with how big corners were back then.

Again...this is what I do to make MONEY...so what else ya got?

So, Rice and Kupp are faster than their combine times, but not Largent? Why? How many of his games did you actually watch? What surface did he run on for his 40 time? You have all the answers. Haynes and Harris both ran under 4.5. There were plenty of other damn fast corners in the 1980’s. Ever hear of Rod Woodson or Darrell Green, for example.

Nearly all the corners covering JSN will be as fast or faster than him, too, but that won’t save them, either. Elite route running trumps speed, if the QB and WR have their timing in sync. I’ve been observing that for about 60 years, but I’m not getting paid to notice.

Edit: I just read an interesting quote from Fred Belitnikoff on this topic. He agrees with me, and he says he ran the 40 in 4.7.

I never said Largent wasn't or couldn't be faster than his reported 40 time...he certainly could have been...but then that would be a direct defeat of your argument, that speed doesn't matter...again. Is that the claim you want to make? I'm more than fine with that. Largent very well could have been and may have been faster than his time...thereby indicating speed does in fact make a difference.

Again, Fred Bilitnikoff ran a 4.7 when that was largely the average time for the time period he played in. In fact he was probably faster than average back in 1965(I don't have data that goes back that far). And again, he ran that 40 time on grass...outdoors, not on turf in a domed environment. You keep making my point for me.

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D.J. Moore is the best player on the Bears entire roster.

Post by davidl on Jun 14, 2023 8:56:31 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jun 14, 2023 10:43:58 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Jun 14, 2023 11:02:17 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jun 14, 2023 18:38:36 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Jun 14, 2023 21:08:11 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Jun 15, 2023 6:29:27 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Jun 15, 2023 7:07:41 GMT -6

Post by JABF on Jun 15, 2023 8:05:50 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Jun 15, 2023 8:14:52 GMT -6

Post by butkus3595 on Jun 15, 2023 8:16:36 GMT -6