Obviously though, you don't want the Bears going through 4 head coaches in 5 years. Bill Belichick was fired by the Cleveland Browns for not cutting it. He was 36-44 there. He ends up HC of the Patriots and will be in the Hall of Fame for his coaching there. How long do you give an NFL head coach to prove himself? Fox has had 1.5 seasons... and some want him fired. I'm not sure that's the best move.
Fox is 61
Bill was 47/48 when the Patriots hired him
I think this is something different. It was his 2nd time to get a Chance and he used it. That's why I think guys like McDaniels are comparables, at least in that sense. Maybe the 2nd Chance will be better with getting older, more experienced and knowing a bit more.
It's just that Fox has a record of 8-16 so far and the worst part is being 3-9 at home.
We Need to find a HC that is more hungry and Fitting to Pace and what Pace wants. Fox is oldschool and stubborn.
I figure every situation is unique. It's not an "age thing" either. Belichick is 3 years older than Fox, and still coaching pretty well. Belichick is about as "old school" as you can get - but he's also brilliant. Is Fox hungry to win? I would be willing to be he'd give anything to win a super bowl before he retires. Is he the answer here in Chicago? I don't know. I do know that I want to see the rest of the season played out.
I think this is something different. It was his 2nd time to get a Chance and he used it. That's why I think guys like McDaniels are comparables, at least in that sense. Maybe the 2nd Chance will be better with getting older, more experienced and knowing a bit more.
It's just that Fox has a record of 8-16 so far and the worst part is being 3-9 at home.
We Need to find a HC that is more hungry and Fitting to Pace and what Pace wants. Fox is oldschool and stubborn.
I figure every situation is unique. It's not an "age thing" either. Belichick is 3 years older than Fox, and still coaching pretty well. Belichick is about as "old school" as you can get - but he's also brilliant. Is Fox hungry to win? I would be willing to be he'd give anything to win a super bowl before he retires. Is he the answer here in Chicago? I don't know. I do know that I want to see the rest of the season played out.
Belichick is a much better Coach and has been for years. He's won SBs. I think this is a different Situation for sure.
Right. So in the real world you have data points at both ends of the spectrum.w here it was bad to let someone go and where it was bad to keep someone. The only common trait there were people in charge that did not know when the right time was. In other words, it can be ok to fire early and it can be ok to keep too late. It depends on the situation. What you need is someone in charge that knows the difference. Until you have that person, I feel it's appropriate to change until you get him. You can have mediocrity for many, many years or you can have worse turmoil but for a shorter time. Pick your poison. Me, I'd rather swallow the bitter pill and see a real organization come out of the ashes.
I think there is a "luck" factor in all of this too. Good luck and bad luck. I liked the Pace hire. I think he has made his share of mistakes, and Fox may (may) be one of them. But I don't think the answer is to fire him and blame Philips. I 100% liked how they approached this last GM/HC hire by bringing in Ernie Accorsi. My personal experience has been that we have brought in consultants at times to help us, and that was good in our situation. I commend the Bears for doing what they did. Maybe we end up firing Fox and maybe even Pace at some point. But I can't fault the process they went through. I still think this may all work out.
Firing people may be the best route, but you want to be sure before you do that. Fans want everyone fired like yesterday. Fans are often not too bright.
I am not a fan of firing Pace at all. I like what he has done. As far as Fox, I think we would be better off without him, but it would not break my heart to see him stay. I do think that someone else, if he were the right person would be better for us.
Why in the world would Phillips not care about having a winning team? They would certainly make more money if they were a consistently winning team. His comment came during a time when the Bears were losing. It was meant to show that the team's finances don't vary wildly from season to season simply on their win/loss performance. I guarantee you Phillips would be much happier with a winning team.
I'm sure he would too but that's still not the point I was making. To me the smoking gun was the comment he made (need to find the podcast if I can) about it being "nice to win" but that it did not affect the teams relationship with it corporate sponsors. It was said in a very casual manner as if to say this is how I do business.
That's great Ted but it does affect the teams relationship with it's fans and a comment about that was notably absent in what he expressed. That's the point I was making.
Payton if this kind of attitude had not been an earmark of the Michael McCaskey era AND it was not the second time I've heard Phillips promote team profits over on the field performance I tend to let it slide as well but that's not the case. Ted Phillips is a throwback to that era and IMHO he should be replaced.
maybe they just hire a guy next to Philips that knows Football? That would help
That's actually the point I'm trying to make. I don't see the McCaskeys asking him to step down but they could hire and Exec VP of Football Operations who has total authority over the on the field product and Ryan Pace would report to him and not GMcC who is also not a genius when it comes to the on the field product. He may be a better alternative than Mikey but that's not saying much.
Why in the world would Phillips not care about having a winning team? They would certainly make more money if they were a consistently winning team. His comment came during a time when the Bears were losing. It was meant to show that the team's finances don't vary wildly from season to season simply on their win/loss performance. I guarantee you Phillips would be much happier with a winning team.
I'm sure he would too but that's still not the point I was making. To me the smoking gun was the comment he made (need to find the podcast if I can) about it being "nice to win" but that it did not affect the teams relationship with it corporate sponsors. It was said in a very casual manner as if to say this is how I do business.
That's great Ted but it does affect the teams relationship with it's fans and a comment about that was notably absent in what he expressed. That's the point I was making.
Payton if this kind of attitude had not been an earmark of the Michael McCaskey era AND it was not the second time I've heard Phillips promote team profits over on the field performance I tend to let it slide as well but that's not the case. Ted Phillips is a throwback to that era and IMHO he should be replaced.
Yes, I remember that and I agree that it opens a window into his priorities and thought process. Keep being profitable. Nice and steady. Continue to make returns for his employers. That is where he is at.
There is NO reason why the Bears can't be worth as much or more than the Cowboys. They pretty much started the league. They have the most players in the HOF. I really believe that with some polish, they can be the crown jewel of the league in both status and value. But polishing that jewel takes expertise, willingness to take risk and the willingness to spend money.
The fact that it has not been done gives insight that the family is not willing to take risks with their return. Even if it means a bigger pot at the end of the rainbow. However, These guys did not get rich by being stupid. While there is a huge degree of loyalty to Phillips, in his heart, I don;t think George believes that he is the creative and business mind to make that happen. Plus, they all want stability for their children, so the order is steady as she goes.
In a team produced radio broadcast President/CEO Ted Phillips made it clear once again that making money for the McCaskey family by enhancing the Bear "brand" though business relationships and corporate sponsorship trumps winning football games.
Soul, I didn't take it that way. Ownership may be inept, but they want to win. I believe Virginia wants to see a championship before she dies. But "wanting" and "doing" are two different things.
With all due respect to both you and Payton, I did take it that way and I've posted at length my reasons for it. But you're right, wanting and doing aren't the same.
Like I've said before the McCaskeys are great fans but poor owners and having a non-football Team President/CEO like Ted Phillips is just one more piece of evidence of why they all too often allow their loyalties to certain people color their decisions about what's best for the team. It's not the Bears "brand" I'm talking about here or anything else other than the on the field product.
Ted Phillips has on more than one occasion chosen to prioritize other matters over that and IMHO as long as he retains any say whatsoever in football operations this team will never regain it's status as a flagship NFL franchise. And just so I'm 100% clear on that nothing anyone can say will alter that opinion.
Obviously though, you don't want the Bears going through 4 head coaches in 5 years. Bill Belichick was fired by the Cleveland Browns for not cutting it. He was 36-44 there. He ends up HC of the Patriots and will be in the Hall of Fame for his coaching there. How long do you give an NFL head coach to prove himself? Fox has had 1.5 seasons... and some want him fired. I'm not sure that's the best move.
Right. So in the real world you have data points at both ends of the spectrum.w here it was bad to let someone go and where it was bad to keep someone. The only common trait there were people in charge that did not know when the right time was. In other words, it can be ok to fire early and it can be ok to keep too late. It depends on the situation. What you need is someone in charge that knows the difference. Until you have that person, I feel it's appropriate to change until you get him. You can have mediocrity for many, many years or you can have worse turmoil but for a shorter time. Pick your poison. Me, I'd rather swallow the bitter pill and see a real organization come out of the ashes.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner?
This is all I've been trying to say. The last time the Bears were actually run top to bottom by 100% football people GSH was still alive and he's been gone for 33 years. When the team was run by football people coaches didn't get 5 years to prove they could win and we stopped hiring Halas's old cronies to coach or run the front office and scouting department. What's our record been like since then?
We had GMs like Jim Finks and Jerry Vainisi and a head of scouting like Bill Tobin and they built a Super Bowl winner that could have been another dynasty if Mikey McCaskey hadn't manged to start a losing tradition based on profit taking as soon as we did win one. Yes, we did lose at least in part because of Mac's injuries but did we go out and sign another top shelf QB who was as good? No we made due with our backups Fuller and Tzak, and once with Doug Flutie.
Doesn't that sound a whole lot like getting by with Brian Hoyer today except we haven't won anything yet. Sorry but I have a sense of history repeating itself.
Mikey began to let players walk once free agency began because he would not compete to keep them and eventually the players who did win that championship aged and were not replaced with players anywhere near as good. Does that sound familiar too? Has something like that happened again within the last 5 years?
When Phil Emery decided to replace Lovie with "his HC" did he seek the best HC money could buy, which may have been Bruce Arians, or did he choose a lower cost option out of the CFL who proved very quickly the job of NFL HC was way above his pay grade?
Ted Phillips was made President/CEO of the Bears in 1999 so he's presided over a lot of what hasn't been right in this millennium and the McCaskey family has presided over the team since 1983. They are not skilled football people and neither is Ted Phillips but that's whose at the very top of the food chain in this organization and they have proven several times over that the job of restoring this franchise is beyond their capabilities no matter how much they'd like to see it happen.
So, get some football people in here who can do that. It's just that simple.
I think there is a "luck" factor in all of this too. Good luck and bad luck. I liked the Pace hire. I think he has made his share of mistakes, and Fox may (may) be one of them. But I don't think the answer is to fire him and blame Philips. I 100% liked how they approached this last GM/HC hire by bringing in Ernie Accorsi. My personal experience has been that we have brought in consultants at times to help us, and that was good in our situation. I commend the Bears for doing what they did. Maybe we end up firing Fox and maybe even Pace at some point. But I can't fault the process they went through. I still think this may all work out.
Firing people may be the best route, but you want to be sure before you do that. Fans want everyone fired like yesterday. Fans are often not too bright.
I am not a fan of firing Pace at all. I like what he has done. As far as Fox, I think we would be better off without him, but it would not break my heart to see him stay. I do think that someone else, if he were the right person would be better for us.
+1 I'm not disagreeing with you, so much as I'm disappointed how this is all playing out. Some will be thrilled if Fox is fired. Me, I'm just seeing it as a necessary evil if that happens, because it will probably mean we roll the dice on yet another HC and who knows if they will get it right this time. And even if they do get the right coach, yes, I'm happy about that, but it's still delaying the rebuild to some extent. Especially if the new guy will have different schemes that requires some other roster moves. And who knows if Vic Fangio will stay if we dump Fox. Maybe. Maybe not.
It's just another roll of the dice to me. I was so hoping Fox, with solid coordinators, could get it done for us.
Soul, I didn't take it that way. Ownership may be inept, but they want to win. I believe Virginia wants to see a championship before she dies. But "wanting" and "doing" are two different things.
With all due respect to both you and Payton, I did take it that way and I've posted at length my reasons for it. But you're right, wanting and doing aren't the same.
Like I've said before the McCaskeys are great fans but poor owners and having a non-football Team President/CEO like Ted Phillips is just one more piece of evidence of why they all too often allow their loyalties to certain people color their decisions about what's best for the team. It's not the Bears "brand" I'm talking about here or anything else other than the on the field product.
Ted Phillips has on more than one occasion chosen to prioritize other matters over that and IMHO as long as he retains any say whatsoever in football operations this team will never regain it's status as a flagship NFL franchise. And just so I'm 100% clear on that nothing anyone can say will alter that opinion.
That's fair enough. I think we both just want the team to win. What's that old saying... something like even a blind squirrel eventually finds a nut. I was hoping Pace/Fox was the nut found by Philips the blind squirrel :-)