Better then the pay whatever contingent. Stephon Gilmore was must have; he's great just look at him; be worse then Prince A.
Was Gilmore the only guy in FA this year or do you like him just because he is the best example of what you are trying to push?
He's the only top cb that was avaible for the Bears to sign that(Boye said he wasn't leaving the AFC South and he didn't) and Gilmore was the guy everyone insisted the Bears had to get, and he was the one everyone railed on Pace for not getting and insisted should have been the one he got at any price(you remember; peppridge farm does)
Was Gilmore the only guy in FA this year or do you like him just because he is the best example of what you are trying to push?
He's the only top cb that was avaible for the Bears to sign that(Boye said he wasn't leaving the AFC South and he didn't) and Gilmore was the guy everyone insisted the Bears had to get, and he was the one everyone railed on Pace for not getting and insisted should have been the one he got at any price(you remember; peppridge farm does)
Bouye was the better corner. I wanted an impact corner and didn't care who it was. Yes, Gilmore was on my radar but he did not pan out. And Fuller did. So did Prince. So we got impact corners anyway. But I did not see Fuller coming on, nor did I see Price being as good as he was. I felt we needed an impact CB and felt we needed to pay whatever the market was because we needed one so bad. Given a crystal ball, Prince was all we needed, but I don't think you can find anyone that felt that way back in FA.
He's the only top cb that was avaible for the Bears to sign that(Boye said he wasn't leaving the AFC South and he didn't) and Gilmore was the guy everyone insisted the Bears had to get, and he was the one everyone railed on Pace for not getting and insisted should have been the one he got at any price(you remember; peppridge farm does)
Bouye was the better corner. I wanted an impact corner and didn't care who it was. Yes, Gilmore was on my radar but he did not pan out. And Fuller did. So did Prince. So we got impact corners anyway. But I did not see Fuller coming on, nor did I see Price being as good as he was. I felt we needed an impact CB and felt we needed to pay whatever the market was because we needed one so bad. Given a crystal ball, Prince was all we needed, but I don't think you can find anyone that felt that way back in FA.
That's b/c you didn't do any research and just listened to the headlines. Bouye was the better corner, which is why he got paid more(even w/less guaranteed) but he wasn't leaving the south so it didn't matter; why NE felt the need to pay Gilmore that idiodic contract is beyond me; but when you are making a run for another SB w/your 40 yr old contract I guess taking gambles makes more sense.
Um They didn't just get Prince though, they got Prince and Cooper and had Fuller/Callahan and LeBlanc on the team, all 3 of which were young and had the possibility(however unlikely looking at Fuller) of stepping up. Fuller was a pleasent surprise; and I hope the Bears FT him and can either work out a long term deal that isn't stupid(see Gilmore) or let him prove his play w/the new HC/DC. IMO when you have an all new staff the FT makes perfect sense b/c you don't know how he'll fit in that system.
I believe Butkus and I both, and had long conversations(w/you and others) about how Gilmore wasn't worth that contract and Prince was going to be a really good CB for the Bears; that even though he didn't get picks he shut down his side of the field). Cooper sucked, but again that's FA; no one hits 100%, and I contend most teams that regularly dip into FA(ie not GB and NE normally) probably don't hit much more then .500.
Bouye was the better corner. I wanted an impact corner and didn't care who it was. Yes, Gilmore was on my radar but he did not pan out. And Fuller did. So did Prince. So we got impact corners anyway. But I did not see Fuller coming on, nor did I see Price being as good as he was. I felt we needed an impact CB and felt we needed to pay whatever the market was because we needed one so bad. Given a crystal ball, Prince was all we needed, but I don't think you can find anyone that felt that way back in FA.
That's b/c you didn't do any research and just listened to the headlines. Bouye was the better corner, which is why he got paid more(even w/less guaranteed) but he wasn't leaving the south so it didn't matter; why NE felt the need to pay Gilmore that idiodic contract is beyond me; but when you are making a run for another SB w/your 40 yr old contract I guess taking gambles makes more sense.
Um They didn't just get Prince though, they got Prince and Cooper and had Fuller/Callahan and LeBlanc on the team, all 3 of which were young and had the possibility(however unlikely looking at Fuller) of stepping up. Fuller was a pleasent surprise; and I hope the Bears FT him and can either work out a long term deal that isn't stupid(see Gilmore) or let him prove his play w/the new HC/DC. IMO when you have an all new staff the FT makes perfect sense b/c you don't know how he'll fit in that system.
I believe Butkus and I both, and had long conversations(w/you and others) about how Gilmore wasn't worth that contract and Prince was going to be a really good CB for the Bears; that even though he didn't get picks he shut down his side of the field). Cooper sucked, but again that's FA; no one hits 100%, and I contend most teams that regularly dip into FA(ie not GB and NE normally) probably don't hit much more then .500.
No, I didn't do any research because I never chose any CB. Just wanted an impact CB because I felt that is what we needed. I did think that Gilmore was better than he turned out to be though. Bouye and Gilmore were my top picks. And I figure I'm in goof company. If BB felt he would make an impact, I'm not sure why it was bad for someone else to think he would make an impact. Or are you now better at seeing what a player will do than BB. I mean to come off saying you did your research and knew he would not do well is hugely hilarious. NE did the same thing and they thought he would. I know where my money is.
That's b/c you didn't do any research and just listened to the headlines. Bouye was the better corner, which is why he got paid more(even w/less guaranteed) but he wasn't leaving the south so it didn't matter; why NE felt the need to pay Gilmore that idiodic contract is beyond me; but when you are making a run for another SB w/your 40 yr old contract I guess taking gambles makes more sense.
Um They didn't just get Prince though, they got Prince and Cooper and had Fuller/Callahan and LeBlanc on the team, all 3 of which were young and had the possibility(however unlikely looking at Fuller) of stepping up. Fuller was a pleasent surprise; and I hope the Bears FT him and can either work out a long term deal that isn't stupid(see Gilmore) or let him prove his play w/the new HC/DC. IMO when you have an all new staff the FT makes perfect sense b/c you don't know how he'll fit in that system.
I believe Butkus and I both, and had long conversations(w/you and others) about how Gilmore wasn't worth that contract and Prince was going to be a really good CB for the Bears; that even though he didn't get picks he shut down his side of the field). Cooper sucked, but again that's FA; no one hits 100%, and I contend most teams that regularly dip into FA(ie not GB and NE normally) probably don't hit much more then .500.
No, I didn't do any research because I never chose any CB. Just wanted an impact CB because I felt that is what we needed. I did think that Gilmore was better than he turned out to be though. Bouye and Gilmore were my top picks. And I figure I'm in goof company. If BB felt he would make an impact, I'm not sure why it was bad for someone else to think he would make an impact. Or are you now better at seeing what a player will do than BB. I mean to come off saying you did your research and knew he would not do well is hugely hilarious. NE did the same thing and they thought he would. I know where my money is.
you are definitely in "goof" company. We can both agree on that
Yes you have. 65 mil for was a YUGE overpay for NE. So would giving Fuller that same contract this year. We had the discussion on if the 1 year FT or a long term 10 year per year deal was better. As this Hoge/Jahns and Soul point out, 10 mil a year isn't really plausible; 12 mil a year really isn't either, Some team w/to much cap will pay to much for him(ie Byrd/Gilmore), and he's not even at their level, and only 1 of them has shown he was worth that cash; and he got less guaranteed.
I 100% agree w/Jahns start w/the FT and move on from there. If you can get him for a good long term deal you do it, if you don't, make him prove he's worth a Gilmore/Byrd like contract and go from there.
Throwing money around rarely works, see Orlando Pace, Peppers, Allen, Gilmore(for NE) and Glennon. Our best FA's haven't been the highest paid, see Hicks, Freeman, Prince A, Sitton, before that McCown and Hoyer, Bennett.
This is better. The don't overpay contingent has arrived.
Didn't take long either did it? LOL
The basic problem I foresee with a $15 mil tag is we're only kicking the can down the road once more and it may end up just as it did with AJ. Either we're willing to pay someone or we're not. If Pace isn't willing to pay $10-$12 mil per year now with $20-$24 mil in guarantees, if that's what it takes, how much more willing will he be a year from now if he has less cap space?
If we're gonna pay him $15 mil for one year on a tag then even with a $24 mil guarantee on a 4 year deal that second year is only costing us $9 mil. If it does work out we have him for two more and if not we cash him out after two years and hope by then we'll have replaced him. As Biggs wrote right now Fuller has gained some huge leverage and he'd be a fool not to use it.
All three of our starting CBs; Fuller, Amukamara, and Callahan, will be out of contract for 2018 and all we have to replace them are Cooper and LeBlanc. Callahan is an RFA so he can be tendered high enough to avoid being poached IF Pace will do that. He's an original UDFA so a lowball tender gets us zilch if he does sign elsewhere. But if he tenders him at a 2nd round pick level losing him is unlikely.
When it comes down to Fuller and Amukamara IMHO Pace needs to decide whether he's finally ready to fish or cut bait. They were as effective a pair of CBs as we've had in quite awhile. We'd need to go back to 2012 with Peanut and Jennings to have been better. JABF is spot on. If we continue to allow players we've drafted and developed to keep leaving as UFA's this rebuild will never be over and we will remain a second division team.
Bouye was the better corner. I wanted an impact corner and didn't care who it was. Yes, Gilmore was on my radar but he did not pan out. And Fuller did. So did Prince. So we got impact corners anyway. But I did not see Fuller coming on, nor did I see Price being as good as he was. I felt we needed an impact CB and felt we needed to pay whatever the market was because we needed one so bad. Given a crystal ball, Prince was all we needed, but I don't think you can find anyone that felt that way back in FA.
That's b/c you didn't do any research and just listened to the headlines. Bouye was the better corner, which is why he got paid more(even w/less guaranteed) but he wasn't leaving the south so it didn't matter; why NE felt the need to pay Gilmore that idiodic contract is beyond me; but when you are making a run for another SB w/your 40 yr old contract I guess taking gambles makes more sense.
Um They didn't just get Prince though, they got Prince and Cooper and had Fuller/Callahan and LeBlanc on the team, all 3 of which were young and had the possibility(however unlikely looking at Fuller) of stepping up. Fuller was a pleasent surprise; and I hope the Bears FT him and can either work out a long term deal that isn't stupid(see Gilmore) or let him prove his play w/the new HC/DC. IMO when you have an all new staff the FT makes perfect sense b/c you don't know how he'll fit in that system.
I believe Butkus and I both, and had long conversations(w/you and others) about how Gilmore wasn't worth that contract and Prince was going to be a really good CB for the Bears; that even though he didn't get picks he shut down his side of the field). Cooper sucked, but again that's FA; no one hits 100%, and I contend most teams that regularly dip into FA(ie not GB and NE normally) probably don't hit much more then .500.
Sorry but if he's guaranteed less his contract is also worth less even if the eventual dollar amount is more because all any player may see is what he's guaranteed.Any agent would tell you that and I am too.
Gilmore is guaranteed $5 mil more in his deal and got $8 mil more upfront so he actually got the better deal based on time value of money as well. That's a significant difference and simple basic economics.
The rest was a pure guess that worked in your favor and butkus's. Congrats, you were right about Gilmore.....for once. But no one had any idea of how well or poorly Amukamara would do or Pace would have given him the longer term deal and not Cooper. So that one you can't claim.He played well but was also challenged far less than Fuller and as usual had no turnovers. Basically we got what we paid for.
Oh, and no need to respond to thank me. Always glad to set the record straight.
That's b/c you didn't do any research and just listened to the headlines. Bouye was the better corner, which is why he got paid more(even w/less guaranteed) but he wasn't leaving the south so it didn't matter; why NE felt the need to pay Gilmore that idiodic contract is beyond me; but when you are making a run for another SB w/your 40 yr old contract I guess taking gambles makes more sense.
Um They didn't just get Prince though, they got Prince and Cooper and had Fuller/Callahan and LeBlanc on the team, all 3 of which were young and had the possibility(however unlikely looking at Fuller) of stepping up. Fuller was a pleasent surprise; and I hope the Bears FT him and can either work out a long term deal that isn't stupid(see Gilmore) or let him prove his play w/the new HC/DC. IMO when you have an all new staff the FT makes perfect sense b/c you don't know how he'll fit in that system.
I believe Butkus and I both, and had long conversations(w/you and others) about how Gilmore wasn't worth that contract and Prince was going to be a really good CB for the Bears; that even though he didn't get picks he shut down his side of the field). Cooper sucked, but again that's FA; no one hits 100%, and I contend most teams that regularly dip into FA(ie not GB and NE normally) probably don't hit much more then .500.
Sorry but if he's guaranteed less his contract is also worth less even if the eventual dollar amount is more because all any player may see is what he's guaranteed.Any agent would tell you that and I am too.
Gilmore is guaranteed $5 mil more in his deal and got $8 mil more upfront so he actually got the better deal based on time value of money as well. That's a significant difference and simple basic economics.
The rest was a pure guess that worked in your favor and butkus's. Congrats, you were right about Gilmore.....for once. But no one had any idea of how well or poorly Amukamara would do or Pace would have given him the longer term deal and not Cooper. So that one you can't claim.He played well but was also challenged far less than Fuller and as usual had no turnovers. Basically we got what we paid for.
Oh, and no need to respond to thank me. Always glad to set the record straight.
Oh i'll respond, happy to.
That's a hole lot of blather for a few highlighted points. The reality, if both contracts were to go to their completion, Gilmore would get more money, so his contract is worth more, that's simple economics. Any agent or money manager that told you different should be fired on the spot. Now NFL contracts don't always go to completion, but that doesn't mean they don't so you cannot just assume only the guaranteed money is what the player will get.
It wasn't guessing or conjecture. Just have to watch read and listen: www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000788031/article/2017-nfl-free-agency-top-101-available-players 6) Stephon Gilmore, Buffalo Bills cornerback: Gilmore has the reputation of a shutdown cornerback but was too often exploited in coverage last season. He boasts the starting experience and physical gifts to break the bank on the open market. 5) A.J. Bouye, Houston Texans cornerback: No NFL player raised his value more in 2016 than Bouye, who started the season as Houston's fourth cornerback and finished as a Pro Bowl-caliber starter on the league's stingiest total defense. He will emerge from the shadows to become a household name once he gets a mega contract. 40) Prince Amukamara, Jacksonville Jaguars cornerback: Amukamara strangely didn't inspire much interest in free agency last year, then provided his usual above-average starting cornerback play. Guys like this usually get paid.
That's right on the nfl.com sight. TL:DR Gilmore is good, but isn't great, but will get paid, Bouye is going to be a stud and get paid, and Prince is under rated but should get paid. Thats pretty much how it played out. AJ was a stud and deserved the contract, Prince outplayed his contract and Gilmore was overpaid b/c he got exploited by other teams.
It wasn't hard to figure out, just like it wasn't hard to figure out that Cutler wasn't going to help the 'Phins to 10 wins and the playoffs. Just like it wasn't hard to figure out that Mo Wilkerson wasn't worth trading for b/c he had the magical great contract year, just like its not hard to figure out that you don't sign a CB that had his first great season in his contract year, right before you are likely to get an all new coaching staff.
If Trumaine Johnson is coming to the market I rather we overpay for him then Fuller seeing that Johnson is just a much more talented CB. 10 million a year for Fuller is his price but in the position we're in. I'd be ok with 12 million but no to 14 million. I rather not overpay for an inconsistent CB.
The big concern I have with Fuller is, will he play at this high level once Fangio is gone?