Post by tragicslip on Sept 13, 2016 0:39:27 GMT -6
holy shit. the throw was fine if white completes the route. Jay may have failed to communicate or something but i am not gonna fault a guy for throwing to where his WR should be.
What White says to us is irrelevant. He needs to execute on the field or gtfo. if he can't learn a route tree, kill him with fly routes until he figures out how to run something else.
Hawk, White spent time in Nashville with Cutler and the other WR in the offseason and while he's missed a few practices he's made plenty more and in that time he certainly should have learned the basics of his position NFL style. The real problem is he hasn't.
He's still playing like he was back at WVU where they simplified the game for him by only ever lining him up on one side of the field and only having him run a handful of pass routes. He came into the NFL without ever having run the entire NFL route tree and he still doesn't know it well enough to execute it over a year later. You don't need to be on a practice field to learn the basics of the route tree anymore than you have to practice reading to learn the alphabet. In fact you have to learn the alphabet long before you can read and he has to learn that route tree in order to play well.
With his size and speed he could dominate against those wide open college secondaries but he can't do that in the NFL. NFL QBs seldom get the time to throw that a college QB gets so many of his bread and butter routes in college can only be used sparingly in the NFL if at all like yesterday when the pass rush doesn't allow enough time for them to develop. If all he can do is "go long" then he's of no use at all in a game like yesterday when Houston's pass rush would seldom allow it. He needs to learn to run precise timing routes that are much shorter and he needs to catch what's thrown to him. He's failing at both of those right now.
Let me throw one other persons perspective and I think you'll see what I mean. This is from "Moon" Mullin who is as good an observer of the Bears and as honest at reporting those observations as anyone on the Bears beat.
The receiving career of Devin Hester in Chicago effectively ended when Cutler no longer had enough confidence in Hester for the Bears to even use him in a minimal fourth- or fifth-receiver role. White likely won’t get to that point, but coaches base game plans on quarterbacks’ confidence in plays, and right now White has some damage repair to do.
White is evincing none of the 4.35 speed he registered at the 2015 Scouting Combine, and the reason has little to do with his stress fracture of last year or his hamstring strain of last week. Every player speaks of how getting the mental side of the game down allows them to play “fast,” and it was too clear on Sunday, as it was during too much of preseason, that White isn’t locked in with the details.
The Bears need White to be fast, very fast, to pose the threat of taking the top off a secondary. Cutler needs White to be fast, catching balls in crunch times (the Bears will have more than one in most games) and, most important, be where he’s supposed to be when he’s supposed to be there.
So in a nutshell we find that White is not playing at his world class speed because he's uncertain of what he's doing and that comes from not understanding his role and how to properly execute it. Sorry but it shouldn't take a year to get that down because the route tree is the same for every NFL team and it's not dependent on learning any specific OCs playbook. It's universal.
We also find that Cutler may have or has lost a certain amount of confidence in him because of his drops and because he's not where he's supposed to be when he's supposed to be there. That was very evident on that pick yesterday and no matter how many other contributing factors anyone wants throw into the mix it won't obscure the fact that White didn't run his route correctly and that was why the ball was picked. That can't keep happening.
Imagine a young QB who can't even execute a simple hand off to his RB without risking a fumble, or make a swing pass or screen pass to his RB. This is the kind of failure to grasp the basics and execute them consistently we're talking about here. No NFL HC would even think of having that QB run his offense yet we're starting a WR whose that far behind in doing the simple things that every WR should know how to do when he arrives. That's about how far behind the curve Kevin White is right now.
General consensus is the NFL route tree is 9 routes . If you can't memorize 9 anythings in a year then ur just a dipstick . On the other hand why haven't the coaches MADE SURE he knows them ? Make him flashcards if needed - put him thru tests on the overhead projector DAILY until it's ingrained in his friggin head . If he had any pride he'd be working after practice every night till he can run them in his sleep .
Post by brasilbear on Sept 13, 2016 7:30:34 GMT -6
Posters saying Cutler hung White out to dry don't understand the timing built into NFL offenses these days. Gone are the day when Stabler could sit back and wait for a WR to get open. All passing offenses are built around a WR and a QB seeing the same thing in a DEF and knowing that the route will be adjusted accordingly. Every OFF does this because DEFs are too good to wait for someone to flash open. Most passes are thrown before the WR is open and often before the WR has turned around. Watch Rogers throw slants. He releases the ball before the WR has even made his cut. Nelson/Cobb/whoever has less than a second to find the ball in the air while continuing to the spot. Nelson will take 2 steps upfield and cut, meanwhile his hands are in position to grab the ball even before he start his cut. If the route is broken OFF, well we all know what that looks like (ask Knox/Hester, they were masters of breaking off slants leaving the ball to do directly to a CB/S/LB.)
That why finding the ball is such a vital skill these days for WRs. The QBs not only know the routes, they have to place the ball exactly where the WR is looking for it. Don't remember what game I was watching yesterday where the WR had a step on the CB and was driving downfield. He looked up found the ball and it was on the opposite side then the route called for, he twisted around but couldn't haul it it. The key was that the WR didn't know the ball was coming to him until he looked up and 'found' it in the air, although not where he expected it. Cutler looked at the same thing White did, and White didn't see the adjustment he had to make. Cutler threw the ball to a spot, because the play call AND the formation AND the coverage dictated that White would be there. White wasn't there.
Cutler, as a captain and leader of the OFF, took blame he didn't have to. He is taught to took check his reads and then turn and throw. This isn't street football anymore. Why did he throw to that spot? Because that is where White was supposed to be. Rogers will yell at a WR at least once a game for the same thing.
Coaching? Football IQ? Game still too fast? Bears better figure it out. Once DEFs understand that White does't understand the OFF, the Bears will see more coverages like the second half yesterday with a safety rolled toward Jeffery and White left one on one with a CB2 or worse.
All I'm saying is lets wait things out. It's just too early to make any decisions on a player. Fuller could easily crap the bed this weekend and White could have a great game.
General consensus is the NFL route tree is 9 routes . If you can't memorize 9 anythings in a year then ur just a dipstick . On the other hand why haven't the coaches MADE SURE he knows them ? Make him flashcards if needed - put him thru tests on the overhead projector DAILY until it's ingrained in his friggin head . If he had any pride he'd be working after practice every night till he can run them in his sleep .
Upside is : it should only get better from here .
It's not memorizing 9 routes, it's memorizing a crap load of actual play names and which route needs to be run. I think you are generalizing it way too much. I played some WR in high school and hated it because I struggled remembering the plays. I preferred playing defense. Have you ever heard the play calling in the NFL? It's ridiculous and it's one of the reasons Goff is not starting for the Rams.
I'm not trying to make excuses for White though, just making sure everyone knows that being a WR is a lot more than just memorizing 9 routes. Every offensive player has to remember the same plays so there is no excuse for him not being able to though. I really hope he gets his game together.
General consensus is the NFL route tree is 9 routes . If you can't memorize 9 anythings in a year then ur just a dipstick . On the other hand why haven't the coaches MADE SURE he knows them ? Make him flashcards if needed - put him thru tests on the overhead projector DAILY until it's ingrained in his friggin head . If he had any pride he'd be working after practice every night till he can run them in his sleep .
Upside is : it should only get better from here .
It's not memorizing 9 routes, it's memorizing a crap load of actual play names and which route needs to be run. I think you are generalizing it way too much. I played some WR in high school and hated it because I struggled remembering the plays. I preferred playing defense. Have you ever heard the play calling in the NFL? It's ridiculous and it's one of the reasons Goff is not starting for the Rams.
I'm not trying to make excuses for White though, just making sure everyone knows that being a WR is a lot more than just memorizing 9 routes. Every offensive player has to remember the same plays so there is no excuse for him not being able to though. I really hope he gets his game together.
Not only that, but the routes change based on if the CB is play press coverage or is 10 yards back. Or if the CB is shading to the outside (WR runs a slant at a dictated distance before cutting based on depth of the LBs) or inside (WR bends the route inside before breaking back to the sideline while the pass is in the air to create space). QB does this for every receiver while checking where the safeties are and other progressions. I saw it last night with the Steelers. Roth-burger looked down field, checking the WRs and then turn and threw to a spot in the flat where he knew the RB was going to be. He never once, not a single time checked to see where the RB was. He knew the RB would be there. As amusing as it is to laugh when a QB throws a ball right to a dropping DE, thats a great play by the DEF because the QB never looked, doesn't have time to look, he's assuming that based on the DEF he was at the snap, that the zone would be open. And he is assuming that a WR/TE/RB saw the same thing and went to the spot. This isn't street football where I can wait for my friend Joe to cut behind the stopped truck and rub his defender off on the front bumper before I throw the ball. QBs have 3 secs to retreat while scanning, set and throw. If the ball isn't out by the time Cutler reaches the end of his drop, he's getting taken down.
Cutler called White out after PS game 3 and was visibly pissed at him after that pick on Sunday. White also had a penalty, a couple of obvious drops, and generally looked slow and clueless out there. I'm hoping he's busting ass in practice this week and burning the midnight oil studying film and the playbook because if he has a few more games like that, Cutler will be done with him. DONE at least for a while.
As Hoge pointed out in his piece, Cutler simply stops looking at or throwing to guys he's lost confidence in. We saw it with Hester and Roy alligator arms Williams. Heck, even Rodgers last year gave up on Davante Adams for a while. If White doesn't improve in the next few weeks, I'd bench him for Meredith or Wilson (when back from PUP) until he earns it back in practice. There's not much point in having a WR out there the QB is gonna ignore most plays.
Yes, it's early and yes there's time for White to get some positive things going. But right now he's on the Cordarelle Patterson track. I think it's pretty clear that Cutler is losing patience with him. He should be farther along the path than he is at this point.
Post by tragicslip on Sept 13, 2016 10:30:17 GMT -6
it's not just memorizing the route, it's running it completely, maintaining balance and keeping your shoulders over your feet so the defender can't cheat too much. that is where white is just failing. he cuts a route short, how do you think the cb knew where the route was headed? it's not just looking at the qb and making a read. often cbs can only read the wrs body language. right now White looks lazy and it sucked the wind out of the bears sails week one.
lazy is a problem. plenty of time to respond properly, but this isn't Knox situation. White is a 1st round pick and he should be ready.
good news is it's one game, but if the qb won't look your way because he doesn't trust you then you shouldn't be on the field. you are just making the defense's job easier.
-White failed the route..in what way we may not know, beyond the fact that he was suppose to go OUT obviously lol...but was he suppose to just run up and in and then cut straight out?...or was he suppose to have the turn in there or not, we might never know. But yes he messed up.
-The defender still caught the INT..and yes, IMO that was a really bad read and throw by Jay...Jay basically threw up a jump ball on an out route with the defender being in a position outside and under with a safety on top and outside, leaving his Wr at a disadvantage in every way IMO..so for that i place a some on Cutler as well..
-Whitehair still got pushed back to prevent Cutler from following through on his throw. Now we all know how Cutler always follows through...but Whitehair didn't do his job in a way that could have caused the turnover as well from impeding the follow through, so he is on board as well...
And to be fair, but not make an excuse...Gase was the OC last year. So White hasn't exactly had a year to learn the playbook that they are actually using...
Well I heard Cutler take his share or responsibility for it but so far White hasn't responded after he uh, watched the game tape. Had he been where Cutler believed he would be based on the play call there's a good chance with his size it would have been a completion. The Safety had to dive to get to it and had White been there his body would have shielded the Safety from the ball.
I'd agree that it wasn't the best throw Cutler made all day but there are times when your receiver has to bail you out of a tight spot and that was one of them. And yes the protection broke down but he did get the throw off and it was a catchable ball.
According to Cutler Loggains has changed little or nothing as far as the basic offensive scheme goes and none of the terminology so an out pattern called for White is still called the same call under Loggains at was under Gase. Loggains approach to play calling is a bit different and Cutler has also commented on that but Loggains didn't bring in an entirely new offense or playbook and even if he had White has had since January to learn that one.
I don't hate the kid seqq I just want him to get his head out of his ass and realize he has a job to do and a team whose counting on him to do it well.
If White was just suppose to run up and out, i would agree that a tight window would have been created, but imo i still think the defender would have been in the better position. With a defender on top and one under, both being outside of where White's cut, Jay needs to lead that ball more outside so no defender has the chance.
And i am not believing what anyone says on that team about injuries or how things have changed or not changed in the playbook lol