Youth and schedule. Again Lovie's teams were mostly 7-9 wins when the schedule was difficult. The level of talent the Bears have is about equal, but younger, the schedule this year is tough, so 5-8 wins seems appropriate for a young team lacking any HoF lvl talent, even if htat talent was getting old and losing steps.
not buying that at all Ric
Nor am I. The Lovie era ended half a decade ago. We've had ample opportunities to upgrade this team and remain in contention and we haven't succeeded. That excuse has worn itself out by now. The facts aren't any more complex that that. I've seen this team turn over nearly it's entire roster and still not improve their W/L record. In fact we've gotten far worse. Why? If we actually have upgraded player personnel then we must have down graded elsewhere. So which is it?
I'm all for being optimistic about the future but the only place this organization and it's players and coaching staff will ever prove that is on the field and to date they have not. Based on that alone it's impossible to say this team has upgraded itself to any great degree except in the hopes and wishes of it's fans. In reality they have not because there are no "paper wins". I'm not against that moves that have been made as my as I am simply apathetic about the near term results. All I can do now is shrug and wait to see the results.
I glad to see some of you are so optimistic. I have a great deal of reservations, personally I think Fox is wrong HC for this team. Yes I know has had great success in the past, but past is the key word.
Which ties directly into this question in my post. If we've actually upgraded talent than where is the evidence of that in our record? It doesn't exist.
"I've seen this team turn over nearly it's entire roster and still not improve their W/L record. In fact we've gotten far worse. Why? If we actually have upgraded player personnel then we must have down graded elsewhere. So which is it?"
I do believe we've added some better players but I also believe as JJ does that poor coaching has detracted from that. Retaining the second losingest HC in team history for a third season simply shows how weak upper management is. These are that factors I keep referring to when I ask what's changed? Cleveland, Jax, TB, and LA have all been adding top talent through the draft and UFA for years. How much better off are they than we've become.
The bottom line is player personnel is not the only issue here. In fact it's not even the biggest one.
So Soul and BiH abd JJ now longs for the days for Trestman and Tucker b/c Fox/Fangio are somehow worse b/c the record says so. I remember a time when those 2 were the butt of all jokes and they were the worst coaches in bears history, wait they still are; cannot have your cake and eat it to boys. Or are maybe we should join in the pining for more 7-9 winnning years w/all pro and hof talent laden teams.
What happened w/the Cubs when they decided to completely overhaul the roster? 2003-20009, 1 60 win season w/75-90 wins in all the others. Maybe the Cubs fans should have just been happy w/that and no WS dreaming. Instead the Cubs overhauled the team, spent 4 years being bad to build up a strong young core that needed a few years to learn how to win. I'll take the Cubs way.
When Trestman/Emery were hired I said this was a team that needed to drop everything bottom out and start over, for various reasons. I said it again when Pace/Fox took over, and why I questioned why Fox was even here. They are finally building that base and people are fed up. The team stunk under Lovie's finally several years and he couldn't fix it. Emery not only didn't fix it, he compouned the problem w/bad drafts and a terrible contract extension to a bad QB. Pace needed to fix the past 2 regimes failures and is finally starting to and people are pissed.
Sigh, then again so were Cubs fans that had no ability to see past that year, but I have no doubt Cubs fans will be happy to look back at the shit years b/c the future is finally bright. Same w/the Bears; the future is finally bright, they have all sorts of good young talent all accross the board, now it's time for them to get experience and find their ceilings so that they can start to build on that and start winning.
So Soul and BiH abd JJ now longs for the days for Trestman and Tucker b/c Fox/Fangio are somehow worse b/c the record says so. I remember a time when those 2 were the butt of all jokes and they were the worst coaches in bears history, wait they still are; cannot have your cake and eat it to boys. Or are maybe we should join in the pining for more 7-9 winnning years w/all pro and hof talent laden teams.
What happened w/the Cubs when they decided to completely overhaul the roster? 2003-20009, 1 60 win season w/75-90 wins in all the others. Maybe the Cubs fans should have just been happy w/that and no WS dreaming. Instead the Cubs overhauled the team, spent 4 years being bad to build up a strong young core that needed a few years to learn how to win. I'll take the Cubs way.
When Trestman/Emery were hired I said this was a team that needed to drop everything bottom out and start over, for various reasons. I said it again when Pace/Fox took over, and why I questioned why Fox was even here. They are finally building that base and people are fed up. The team stunk under Lovie's finally several years and he couldn't fix it. Emery not only didn't fix it, he compouned the problem w/bad drafts and a terrible contract extension to a bad QB. Pace needed to fix the past 2 regimes failures and is finally starting to and people are pissed.
Sigh, then again so were Cubs fans that had no ability to see past that year, but I have no doubt Cubs fans will be happy to look back at the shit years b/c the future is finally bright. Same w/the Bears; the future is finally bright, they have all sorts of good young talent all accross the board, now it's time for them to get experience and find their ceilings so that they can start to build on that and start winning.
Guess I'll have to go back to see where I said that because I don't remember saying that.
So Soul and BiH abd JJ now longs for the days for Trestman and Tucker b/c Fox/Fangio are somehow worse b/c the record says so. I remember a time when those 2 were the butt of all jokes and they were the worst coaches in bears history, wait they still are; cannot have your cake and eat it to boys. Or are maybe we should join in the pining for more 7-9 winnning years w/all pro and hof talent laden teams.
What happened w/the Cubs when they decided to completely overhaul the roster? 2003-20009, 1 60 win season w/75-90 wins in all the others. Maybe the Cubs fans should have just been happy w/that and no WS dreaming. Instead the Cubs overhauled the team, spent 4 years being bad to build up a strong young core that needed a few years to learn how to win. I'll take the Cubs way.
When Trestman/Emery were hired I said this was a team that needed to drop everything bottom out and start over, for various reasons. I said it again when Pace/Fox took over, and why I questioned why Fox was even here. They are finally building that base and people are fed up. The team stunk under Lovie's finally several years and he couldn't fix it. Emery not only didn't fix it, he compouned the problem w/bad drafts and a terrible contract extension to a bad QB. Pace needed to fix the past 2 regimes failures and is finally starting to and people are pissed.
Sigh, then again so were Cubs fans that had no ability to see past that year, but I have no doubt Cubs fans will be happy to look back at the shit years b/c the future is finally bright. Same w/the Bears; the future is finally bright, they have all sorts of good young talent all accross the board, now it's time for them to get experience and find their ceilings so that they can start to build on that and start winning.
Guess I'll have to go back to see where I said that because I don't remember saying that.
Maybe that's just the feeling I get from those lamenting the current/future. btw, here's what Fangio said, but I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about right:
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Vic Fangio: "Although it's our 3rd year here, it's going to be 1st year for a lot of guys, so you don't have that foundation already built."
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kevin carlsonNate GiovannoneCiaran🐸Nathan ChagollaChicago Bears GuruJohnny Avilarichard harveyAriano FonsecaChitownsportsfan⚾🏀
1:28 PM - 13 May 2017
This is what I've been trying to say and getting some resistence. You cannot turn over a roster in 2 years and have a team ready to win. It's just not how it works. Doesn't matter if it's b/c of FA or b/c of the draft, when the previous drafts were so bad that you only have a few guys left, the teams foundation is weak and you won't be winning. Right now the majority of players left from those drafts aren't even at key positions, qb, lb, de, cb, OT(okay one is at OT but mostr want him replaced, and one is at cb, but most expect him to get cut). This team was weak top to bottom and at the key position when Pace/Fox took over, you cannot turn it around in 2 years when there is litterally nothing to build on.
Guess I'll have to go back to see where I said that because I don't remember saying that.
Maybe that's just the feeling I get from those lamenting the current/future. btw, here's what Fangio said, but I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about right:
Zach ZaidmanVerified account
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Vic Fangio: "Although it's our 3rd year here, it's going to be 1st year for a lot of guys, so you don't have that foundation already built."
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kevin carlsonNate GiovannoneCiaran🐸Nathan ChagollaChicago Bears GuruJohnny Avilarichard harveyAriano FonsecaChitownsportsfan⚾🏀
1:28 PM - 13 May 2017
This is what I've been trying to say and getting some resistence. You cannot turn over a roster in 2 years and have a team ready to win. It's just not how it works. Doesn't matter if it's b/c of FA or b/c of the draft, when the previous drafts were so bad that you only have a few guys left, the teams foundation is weak and you won't be winning. Right now the majority of players left from those drafts aren't even at key positions, qb, lb, de, cb, OT(okay one is at OT but mostr want him replaced, and one is at cb, but most expect him to get cut). This team was weak top to bottom and at the key position when Pace/Fox took over, you cannot turn it around in 2 years when there is litterally nothing to build on.
Look... I like Fangio as much as the next guy. I am one of his biggest fans. But every year we have had a bunch of guys who's year will be their first year. Not a very good excuse imo. And no coach is going to admit that under their direction the losses have gone up because of them. It's the rebuild or the injuries or whatever. A person has to make their own decisions on the causes and give priority to what is hsppening... not what they are being told is happening.
Maybe that's just the feeling I get from those lamenting the current/future. btw, here's what Fangio said, but I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about right:
Zach ZaidmanVerified account
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Vic Fangio: "Although it's our 3rd year here, it's going to be 1st year for a lot of guys, so you don't have that foundation already built."
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kevin carlsonNate GiovannoneCiaran🐸Nathan ChagollaChicago Bears GuruJohnny Avilarichard harveyAriano FonsecaChitownsportsfan⚾🏀
1:28 PM - 13 May 2017
This is what I've been trying to say and getting some resistence. You cannot turn over a roster in 2 years and have a team ready to win. It's just not how it works. Doesn't matter if it's b/c of FA or b/c of the draft, when the previous drafts were so bad that you only have a few guys left, the teams foundation is weak and you won't be winning. Right now the majority of players left from those drafts aren't even at key positions, qb, lb, de, cb, OT(okay one is at OT but mostr want him replaced, and one is at cb, but most expect him to get cut). This team was weak top to bottom and at the key position when Pace/Fox took over, you cannot turn it around in 2 years when there is litterally nothing to build on.
Look... I like Fangio as much as the next guy. I am one of his biggest fans. But every year we have had a bunch of guys who's year will be their first year. Not a very good excuse imo. And no coach is going to admit that under their direction the losses have gone up because of them. It's the rebuild or the injuries or whatever. A person has to make their own decisions on the causes and give priority to what is hsppening... not what they are being told is happening.
No not every year do you have a bunch of 1st year guys. 48 man rosters(come the reg season) on winning teams aren't normally made up of a large amount of 1st year guys on the team. The fact that it's happened so often w/the Bears is part of the problem and why they haven't won much. You should have maybe 10-12 new guys on your team(4-6 rookies and a handful of FA's), and most of those shouldn't be starting. This year new starters: Jaye Howard Cooper Prince Demps Wright Wheaton Sims Glennon Guys that are going to see some serious action: Cohen (ST) Jackson (ST) *might be a starting safety* Shaheen Compton Jenkins Skuta(who I think might be the primary backup or starter if Danny T isn't ready which sounds like a possibility) Sanchez(or Trubs if Glennon sucks/gets hurt)
That's 14-15 guys that weren't on the team last year. And that's ignoring any of the UDFA's that might stick
Look... I like Fangio as much as the next guy. I am one of his biggest fans. But every year we have had a bunch of guys who's year will be their first year. Not a very good excuse imo. And no coach is going to admit that under their direction the losses have gone up because of them. It's the rebuild or the injuries or whatever. A person has to make their own decisions on the causes and give priority to what is hsppening... not what they are being told is happening.
No not every year do you have a bunch of 1st year guys. 48 man rosters(come the reg season) on winning teams aren't normally made up of a large amount of 1st year guys on the team. The fact that it's happened so often w/the Bears is part of the problem and why they haven't won much. You should have maybe 10-12 new guys on your team(4-6 rookies and a handful of FA's), and most of those shouldn't be starting. This year new starters: Jaye Howard Cooper Prince Demps Wright Wheaton Sims Glennon Guys that are going to see some serious action: Cohen (ST) Jackson (ST) *might be a starting safety* Shaheen Compton Jenkins Skuta(who I think might be the primary backup or starter if Danny T isn't ready which sounds like a possibility) Sanchez(or Trubs if Glennon sucks/gets hurt)
That's 14-15 guys that weren't on the team last year. And that's ignoring any of the UDFA's that might stick
okey dokey... whatever you say. We have the "new guy" excuse ready to go in case the team does not do well.
No not every year do you have a bunch of 1st year guys. 48 man rosters(come the reg season) on winning teams aren't normally made up of a large amount of 1st year guys on the team. The fact that it's happened so often w/the Bears is part of the problem and why they haven't won much. You should have maybe 10-12 new guys on your team(4-6 rookies and a handful of FA's), and most of those shouldn't be starting. This year new starters: Jaye Howard Cooper Prince Demps Wright Wheaton Sims Glennon Guys that are going to see some serious action: Cohen (ST) Jackson (ST) *might be a starting safety* Shaheen Compton Jenkins Skuta(who I think might be the primary backup or starter if Danny T isn't ready which sounds like a possibility) Sanchez(or Trubs if Glennon sucks/gets hurt)
That's 14-15 guys that weren't on the team last year. And that's ignoring any of the UDFA's that might stick
okey dokey... whatever you say. We have the "new guy" excuse ready to go in case the team does not do well.
Name the person that thinks the team thinks the team is going to do well. I don't think there is a doubt by anyone that the team will not do well.
Okay I'll tell you what, show me a team that constantly is in the playoffs and has 10+ new starters every year and I'll relent. I'll wait...
okey dokey... whatever you say. We have the "new guy" excuse ready to go in case the team does not do well.
Name the person that thinks the team thinks the team is going to do well. I don't think there is a doubt by anyone that the team will not do well.
Okay I'll tell you what, show me a team that constantly is in the playoffs and has 10+ new starters every year and I'll relent. I'll wait...
It may have happened 90 years ago... In reality is this... This team is a very young team after getting rid of a lot s**t players from the Angelo/Emery era... I did like what I saw most of the season. I think the Bears will be better this season. Playoffs.. No..