I have a question maybe someone could answer regarding trading up from that 2nd round pick of ours. If we do get one of the top D guys with our 1st round pick, we also could see one of the top QB's left towards the lower 1st round (kind of like Green Bay had with Aaron Rodgers the year Alex Smith was the #1 overall pick of that draft). We are #3 of the second round. Pretty high 2nd round position. I realize this is a guess, but what would it typically take to trade up from that #3-second round pick to say #25-first round?
One scenario I could see happening in this draft is that teams won't spend a top first round pick on a QB but maybe a latter 1st round team will - which may be a better match to the talent of the QBs in this draft. And it is entirely possible that the QB Pace likes best in this draft COULD be a guy available in the latter 1st round. Keep in mind Pace's QB target may not be another team's QB target (think the Green Bay example with Aaron Rodgers vs Alex Smith).
It would be quite a draft if we could get our QB and one of the top D guys in this draft.
Roughly 160 points or the value of a later 3rd round pick.
Thanks Soul. If we could get our impact D player AND a solid young QB, I'd be fine trading that 2nd round pick to get back up into the 1st round. Two first round picks could be a good move if THE guy Pace covets is still left in the latter part of the first round and he thinks the guy won't make it to us in the second round.
I'll tell ya who I like better than Allen and thats the Solomon Thomas kid from Stanford who just declared. I know Allen is the big name, but this Thomas kid POPS! Plays 5 tech for Stanford and is developed as a lineman:
"J.J. was good at Wisconsin, but he wasn't dominant. His motor was relentless and you could see the talent, but it didn't really click for J.J. as far as how to use his strength and power until about halfway through his rookie year," Zierlein said. "Thomas looks a lot like that right now. He's fluid, it looks effortless, he can string moves together. There's a wicked spin move there that he hasn't even fully developed yet. He can move around and play different spots. He doesn't have the arm length of a Watt and he's got to add some mass, but he looks like a smaller version of Watt. Both are physical freaks."
Roughly 160 points or the value of a later 3rd round pick.
Thanks Soul. If we could get our impact D player AND a solid young QB, I'd be fine trading that 2nd round pick to get back up into the 1st round. Two first round picks could be a good move if THE guy Pace covets is still left in the latter part of the first round and he thinks the guy won't make it to us in the second round.
Of course. Hell I'd be fine trading out of #3 as well if whose on the board doesn't favor us at that spot. Then we can pick up a few picks we can use or swap around for guys we might like. Just be smart because any more big mistakes could be lethal.
Going with the defensive pick, I'll switch and be devils advocate here. Say that the Browns finally understand their inability to pick the right QB, they might just decide to go with a sure thing and pick Garrett. That would at least get them a difference maker. I think the probability is high that they do that. The 9ers may follow suit and think that the QB is too much of a crap shoot or no QB deserves the #2 pick and go with Allen. I don't know who Pace wants, but if he wants defense, the two best guys just went off the board. Now the option to go sure thing defense in the first and best QB in the second goes off the table. Now does he reach for a QB, go for a D guy that may not be worth the #3, get a WR or secondary guy (not sure any are worth #3) or go LT.
Garrett and Allen should be no brainers for this team, so that's why i've been looking at the others.
S's don't normally go top 5, Cb's rarely do and OT is supposedly as bad or worse then QB. And at that point, why is anyone trading up for the Bears picks?
Is Malik Hooker a Berry type FS? If so then he's worth that pick, but that's a HUGE jump in assumption. Also there is only 1 DB that Walter has a top 10 pick grade on, the rest are all top 20 or 1st to 1-2 rounders. So really Only Hooker(at this time and it will change mind you) seems to be worth that pick.
So far IF Garrett/Allen are gone your best def player is a S, 3-4 DE's and OLB's and ILB's also don't have top 10 grades at this point. Going through the grades is actually sad, IT's Garrett/Allen/Hooker and everyone else. And I'm not sure Hooker is worth it....again check back after the combine and pro days and I bet there are far more top 10 worthy picks.
That's been my point regarding a QB worth the #3 pick, really no 3-4 Def player outside of Allen and Garrett are really worth that #3 pick either, so it's really going to depend on what and how Pace and his staff grade out the others. Per usual the Bears found a way to suck at the worst possible time, ala Ced Benson being the best choice.
I have full faith that Pace can get the job done correctly though.
I want to say that as far as Loggains goes, I actually meant to add to that thread you were talking about that while I am for giving Loggains another year to see if he becomes a good OC, that I would be completely open to bringing in a top known OC commodity. However, (I know we differ on this), that is what Fox was supposed to be and I don;t think he is. As far as Donatell, yes, I like him a lot. The thing is that the position coaches don't get the visibility of the HC and it is hard to see where the actual coach makes a mistake as opposed to where the player is no good. I can't say I saw any issues with Donatells coaching, but not sure I would have. I did see bad secondary play. With Fox, I see him picking the wrong horse several times, I get the feeling he is lost ad drifting sometimes, I don;t see any adjustments or savy chess football out there. I just see a guy.
Fox was never an offensive coach, so I'm not sure why you expect him to be a known OC commodity. Or did I read that wrong?
Also, and I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but when you don't have talent, what exact adjustments are you supposed to make? He's had some of the best coordinators in the game almost everywhere he's been. Why do those guys not get flack for not making adjustments? Fangio is great...he runs the defense...where were his adjustments? You see what I'm getting at?
EDIT: ah... I see why you were confused. The way I said it. I meant to say that Fox was supposed to be a top commodity (not a top OC commodity). Hey... you should know to understand what I meant and not what I said!
It's why the idea that Tresty and his staff should have "coached up" the bums on that team was laughable. Trestiman and his staff were bad, but not b/c they couldn't coach up shitty players. Christian Jones, John Bostic, Shea Mc, aren't NFL quality LB's. Fuller isn't an NFL CB, Vereen wasn't an NFL S, and lets not forget kasheem Greene, Jordan Mills wasn't a legit OT. Sutton and Ego were either hurt or coudln't find the field in that last season to see if they could have been legit 4-3 DL'men, but they are only boarderline players in a 3-4.
The handful of vets that could play, didn't want to play for them either. That team was set to fail from the word go.
This team is more talented top to bottom, and more well coached, but they still lack a QB that can win games for them and they have been decimated w/injuries this year, and there is no depth. That talk about the lack of depth happened this offseason.
Fox was never an offensive coach, so I'm not sure why you expect him to be a known OC commodity. Or did I read that wrong?
Also, and I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but when you don't have talent, what exact adjustments are you supposed to make? He's had some of the best coordinators in the game almost everywhere he's been. Why do those guys not get flack for not making adjustments? Fangio is great...he runs the defense...where were his adjustments? You see what I'm getting at?
EDIT: ah... I see why you were confused. The way I said it. I meant to say that Fox was supposed to be a top commodity (not a top OC commodity). Hey... you should know to understand what I meant and not what I said!
It's why the idea that Tresty and his staff should have "coached up" the bums on that team was laughable. Trestiman and his staff were bad, but not b/c they couldn't coach up shitty players. Christian Jones, John Bostic, Shea Mc, aren't NFL quality LB's. Fuller isn't an NFL CB, Vereen wasn't an NFL S, and lets not forget kasheem Greene, Jordan Mills wasn't a legit OT. Sutton and Ego were either hurt or coudln't find the field in that last season to see if they could have been legit 4-3 DL'men, but they are only boarderline players in a 3-4.
The handful of vets that could play, didn't want to play for them either. That team was set to fail from the word go.
This team is more talented top to bottom, and more well coached, but they still lack a QB that can win games for them and they have been decimated w/injuries this year, and there is no depth. That talk about the lack of depth happened this offseason.
Pretty much. Listen, when I've got Brian Hoyer/Matt Barkley, Josh Bellamy, Cam Meredith(who turned out to be a nice surprise), Daniel Brown, and a host of other guys who've been cut multiple times by other teams STARTING for me...I just don't expect to win many games except for by miracle. If this team were fully healthy my expectations would have been much different.
And boy I'm sure hoping we don't because I don't want to invest somewhere around $28-$30 mil guaranteed in any of those guys for four years to find out whether or not he's a franchise QB. Not if I can draft a blue chip player at another position or trade down for more picks one of which might actually be worth spending on a young passer.
Ya far better to invest 60 mil in a known failure, or invest 35-50 mil in 4 years plus multiple picks on a complete unkown right?