I agree the Raiders have more talent than the Browns but still the coaching carousel myth did not hurt them. Revolving doors at HC involve teams that most often lack talent. Sometimes there are exceptions like Denver being let go from Denver. Denver wasn't decimated when they lost the HC AND OC. So whether stacked with talent or couldn't form a competitive CFL team the turnover at HC excuse doesn't hold water. When they look at keeping Fox I don't think continuity at HC should be heavily weighted. I prefer them to go with do they believe that Fox is the coach to get them to a SB and are they on the same page philosophy wise over concern about keeping a HC for proper # of years a HC should have.
All fair points. Would Tony Sparano have done any better with the talent on the roster now as opposed to when he was the coach? I think we can all say yes, would he have done as well as Del Rio? We can debate that depending on how good of a coach you think Del Rio is. Part of the Raiders problem was it's owner as well. I'm not lying when I tell you players did not want to play for that organization. The son, despite his hair cut, seems to have a better idea of whats needed to win in todays NFL as Oakland isn't seen the same way any more.
I probably pull for Del Rio a little more because I thought it was funny af when he was doing the 'keep chopping the wood' thing with the team and then the Kicker tried it and hit himself (in his non-kicking foot) with the axe and ending his year. That is priceless...stories like that can not be made up! Also I found out he grew up and went to high school just a few miles from the coliseum so he's got the home town hero thing going, but mainly the chopping wood story!
This Team has won more last year with lots of injuries too... have we ever had as many injured Players as we have with Pace/Fox?
This Team got worse in the end...
We had less injuries last year. We had a lot, but not as many players on IR as there have been this year, and not as many starters went to IR last year as compared to this year.
They are two different years, and at the end of the day we may end up winning 1 less game than we did last year, even with all the injuries. We also finished last season with the toughest strength of schedule in the league last year. I could go on and on with reasons, but it really doesn't matter to some.
Fox lost us 2 games (Jax & GB) already and hasn't put us in a good Position on 2-3 other games. That's 5 Ls going directly to Coaching. Injuries and strenght of schedule... that's it? That's the big reason why we are a joke? That's all?
All fair points. Would Tony Sparano have done any better with the talent on the roster now as opposed to when he was the coach? I think we can all say yes, would he have done as well as Del Rio? We can debate that depending on how good of a coach you think Del Rio is. Part of the Raiders problem was it's owner as well. I'm not lying when I tell you players did not want to play for that organization. The son, despite his hair cut, seems to have a better idea of whats needed to win in todays NFL as Oakland isn't seen the same way any more.
I've been to the Raiders HQs more than a couple times. Mark has a bad haircut because he is incredibly cheap. He will move the team to Vegas if he can save a nickel. I am hoping that the Ronnie Lott group gains momentum and the Raiders stay in Oakland. I just hate to think of any pro-team in Las Vegas. The Coliseum is the biggest dump in the NFL and in the MLB. Something has to be done about that situation. The "suites" literally still have small old CRT TVs built into the walls. A major league baseball team should not have to deal with turds floating in the dug out. I feel bad for Raiders & A's fans, they deserve better.
Yeah the players don't like it much better. They've said the facilities are some of the worst in the league, and they echo the cheap sentiment.
We had less injuries last year. We had a lot, but not as many players on IR as there have been this year, and not as many starters went to IR last year as compared to this year.
They are two different years, and at the end of the day we may end up winning 1 less game than we did last year, even with all the injuries. We also finished last season with the toughest strength of schedule in the league last year. I could go on and on with reasons, but it really doesn't matter to some.
Fox lost us 2 games (Jax & GB) already and hasn't put us in a good Position on 2-3 other games. That's 5 Ls going directly to Coaching. Injuries and strenght of schedule... that's it? That's the big reason why we are a joke? That's all?
You're assuming we would have scored had we went for it. You can't do that. And I love how we all crap on him for games he may have cost us because of decisions made but ignore the games we've stayed in because of decisions he's made, or games we would have won had players just simply executed. Thats why this is a losing discussion, one of us is looking at this without emotion, and the other is not and its clouding their vision.
Post by germansbombedph on Dec 22, 2016 7:23:54 GMT -6
How do you know it was his decisions that kept us in the game? Maybe we would have been even better without bad Coaching and you blame it on the Players? I see at least big Problems with the way he handled the ending against GB and is a big part of the L. He did NOT give us the Chance to win. We end up with 1 Minute left and Hand them the ball by going for the TIE. That's as stupid as it gets. Run the ball, eat clock and make sure you are heading to OT. This Kind of mistake is just bad Coaching and nothing to defend.
How anybody can defend Fox with a 3-11 and a .3 is beyond me. Fox isn't working out here.
How do you know it was his decisions that kept us in the game? Maybe we would have been even better without bad Coaching and you blame it on the Players? I see at least big Problems with the way he handled the ending against GB and is a big part of the L. He did NOT give us the Chance to win. We end up with 1 Minute left and Hand them the ball by going for the TIE. That's as stupid as it gets. Run the ball, eat clock and make sure you are heading to OT. This Kind of mistake is just bad Coaching and nothing to defend.
How anybody can defend Fox with a 3-11 and a .3 is beyond me. Fox isn't working out here.
You can't knock his decisions that "cost us the game" and then not give him credit for decisions that kept us in the game. That would make you a hypocrite and your opinion would be invalid. As for the end of the game, I don't like the play calling either, and I knocked him for it. Having said that, if you watch the replay of that play at the end, if Barkley makes a better throw over the shoulder of the receiver to the back of the end zone he's got a possible catch for a TD(if he doesn't drop it like our 4th and 5th string receivers have been doing a lot this season). It all comes down to execution. I don't like that a pass play was called, but it could have worked had the players executed better. So yeah...I blame players when they don't execute...it's called personal responsibility. If you're put in position to make a play and you don't do it how is that on the coaches? Should they have run the ball? Absolutely! With the way they were running Howard probably scores. Here's the deal though...there still would have been time left on the clock and the defense still would have had to DO IT'S JOB and stop the Packers from scoring.
We've been over it a million and 1 times. If the talent level were better I'd expect more. If we didn't have 19 players on IR I'd expect more. If we weren't starting a QB who was sitting on his couch in September I'd expect more. If we weren't starting guys in the secondary that were undrafted cast off's from another team I'd expect more. If we didn't have two key starters suspended for 4 games I'd expect more. If we weren't starting our 4th and 5th string receivers I'd expect more. If we weren't starting guys at tight end who I've never heard of I'd expect more....do I need to keep going on and on and on with the reasons I don't expect this team to win games and why nobody with any sense of reality should either?
Like it or not, I think that's exactly what's gonna happen. As much as I've criticized JF for his clock management and poor halftime performances, I can live with giving him another year WITH Fangio and a new OC. I've seen a lot more fight in this team than I did in Trestmans last year even though the record is worse. We aren't getting blown out in embarrassing fashion anymore. In fact, Matt Barkley could easily be 4-0 as a starter right now if not for some poor play calls by Logg and a stretch of inexcusable drops by receivers that is quite literally record-breaking.
Billy I'm glad you posted this because after listening to both their interviews yesterday my conclusion was much the same. Fangio is a no BS straight shooter. There's no hemming and hawing. He evaluates what's happened and speaks about it in a way that tells me he has a handle on what you do to improve on a situation. AND he has consistently done that in the two years he's been here.
Fox on the other hand never seems to know quite what to say and always hesitates to say too much like he doesn't want to be held to anything or have much nailed down. He paints with a very broad brush so you never really know how he views much of anything and I have yet to ever hear him take the responsibility for a bad decision on his part.
In fact he bristles anytime a reporter even suggests something may have been a bad decision. Then it always becomes "well we coulda done this or we coulda done that", "six of one or half dozen of another" or "it's easy for you to say eating hot dogs in your air conditioned press box but not so easy down here on the field".
Obviously not when you get so many things wrong. So wrong in fact that most any half way knowledgeable fan can even question some of those decision logically and intelligently. I don't like being patronized or talked down to and Fox has a bad habit of doing just that. He's ultra defensive about any criticism whereas Fangio simply intercepts it by taking it head on even to the point of accepting the blame himself. That's the kind of self confidence I want to see out of a HC not the kind of defensiveness we get out of Fox 24/7.
I would be shocked if Fox, Fangio and Pace are all on the same page and there isn't an undercurrent on issues. It's pretty damn tough to figure out how there can't be when you're 3-11 this year and 9-21 over two seasons and all your HC can say is "we have a lot of work to do". What's even more pathetic is that's exactly what he said after the 3rd preseason game and after the opener too as I recall.
So I have to ask what has our legendary "turn around artist" been doing for nearly two years if there's still this much work left to do. Where is the promised progress and why the major regression? For whatever reason or reasons it's not working and staying in any relationship, even an NFL one, that isn't working makes no sense to me.
Bad marriages don't get better over time no matter if their between a man and a woman or an NFL GM and his HC. We all knew that somewhere along the line following the Super Bowl the relationship between Lovie and JA had soured a bit and IMHO with it went any hope at all of fixing the offense and getting Cutler some help.
A classic example of this is Lovie hires his old HC as OC. His OC doesn't like pass catching TEs and Lovie doesn't want to lose him (even though he did anyway) so to please them JA trades away a TE whose become a perennial Pro Bowler and Cutler's top pass catcher. Somehow I get this same gnawing feeling of the tail (HC) wagging the dog (GM) again when personnel decisions are being made.
No doubt Pace could use some help in the form of a mentor but IMHO John Fox might just as well be the devil when it comes to that because personnel is just one more area where he will not admit to making a mistake. Even when he backs a player in public he can turn on that same guy on a dime like he did with Cutler when there wasn't a soul anywhere I can find who knows football who actually thought Hoyer was the better of the two and we could win more easily with him.
So once again we have some major personnel decisions to make this offseason Cutler and AJ being among them and I'm very uncomfortable with John Fox being a part of that process. He's seldom been right since he got here and I simply don't trust his judgement anymore than I do his coaching skills. I think he's too thin skinned and he will manipulate anyone and anything to take the focus off his own shortcomings and project them on to someone else. That is the John Fox I've learned about over the past 6 years or so.
I like your analogy to dating. A GM can interview, do homework, etc. and think he's got the one but that's kind of like the first date infatuation stage. He may not realize if it's good or bad until they go through a season or two - day to day communication, decision making or lack thereof, going through the ups & downs and how the biggest challenges are handled. Once one realizes it ain't gonna work they've got to man up and cut the cord. But it is a business where fans pay the bills so just don't cut the cord without a game plan and end up going through a bunch of one night stands cause you'll end up with a VD called The Browns.
ROTFL man I heard them called a lot of things but never an STD before. Browns fans should love that. It's either that or they're herpes bad and just remain the gift that keeps on giving. LOL
Post by tragicslip on Dec 25, 2016 10:35:43 GMT -6
I want a HC that I am excited about, someone who's game plan can steal a game. I loved Gase and the Fangio.
Now Gase is gone and the Dolphins (is talent an excuse for them too?) are in the playoff hunt in the final week of the season.
Fangio is still our DC, and I can only hope the friction talk stuff is BS. If he leaves I don't really care how good the next guys Fox brings in are; 2nd half of games for majority of the season demonstrate a lack of prep.
