The point is that you can use those players to make a competent team until you have the rest of the team is built around them, and at that time(3rd year) they can look into replacing those players.
Current team needs: LT, RT, QB, WR x2, TE, ILB.
Team needs after that: OLBx2, CB, S, QB 2, RB, WR, swing OT.
You really think that cannot be done by the 3rd year w/full set of picks and FA opening up in 2022 and 2023?
16 players in 3 yrs via draft and FA. that's about 5 a year. 2 in one draft/fa 3 in the other. That's very possible.
That there ^^^^^ is pretty much how I see it too, Ric. At least that seems reasonable to me. And it's not saying it's going to be easy to accomplish, but that should be the objective. The really cool thing about that plan is that we should see somewhat better football right away. It will be exciting for fans to be able to watch young new players develop and play in better schemes than what we now have with Nagy and Pagano. I hope they do what you suggest. I hope they don't get tempted to do a "win now" thing. Be patient and build around existing young talent, but build the team with a great foundation... not old has-been guys like Graham. Be patient and develop good young players for SUSTAINED winning. There isn't a shortcut to that. I think fans would be pleased. A 3 year building up of the roster like that should show much more improvement than Ryan Pace has shown in 6 years here. We should see some evidence of success after 3 or 4 seasons if your plan is followed. It at least makes sense to me.
The point is that you can use those players to make a competent team until you have the rest of the team is built around them, and at that time(3rd year) they can look into replacing those players.
Current team needs: LT, RT, QB, WR x2, TE, ILB.
Team needs after that: OLBx2, CB, S, QB 2, RB, WR, swing OT.
You really think that cannot be done by the 3rd year w/full set of picks and FA opening up in 2022 and 2023?
16 players in 3 yrs via draft and FA. that's about 5 a year. 2 in one draft/fa 3 in the other. That's very possible.
That there ^^^^^ is pretty much how I see it too, Ric. At least that seems reasonable to me. And it's not saying it's going to be easy to accomplish, but that should be the objective. The really cool thing about that plan is that we should see somewhat better football right away. It will be exciting for fans to be able to watch young new players develop and play in better schemes than what we now have with Nagy and Pagano. I hope they do what you suggest. I hope they don't get tempted to do a "win now" thing. Be patient and build around existing young talent, but build the team with a great foundation... not old has-been guys like Graham. Be patient and develop good young players for SUSTAINED winning. There isn't a shortcut to that. I think fans would be pleased. A 3 year building up of the roster like that should show much more improvement than Ryan Pace has shown in 6 years here. We should see some evidence of success after 3 or 4 seasons if your plan is followed. It at least makes sense to me.
And the reason is because Pace would leave behind a much younger and more solid roster than he inherited.
That there ^^^^^ is pretty much how I see it too, Ric. At least that seems reasonable to me. And it's not saying it's going to be easy to accomplish, but that should be the objective. The really cool thing about that plan is that we should see somewhat better football right away. It will be exciting for fans to be able to watch young new players develop and play in better schemes than what we now have with Nagy and Pagano. I hope they do what you suggest. I hope they don't get tempted to do a "win now" thing. Be patient and build around existing young talent, but build the team with a great foundation... not old has-been guys like Graham. Be patient and develop good young players for SUSTAINED winning. There isn't a shortcut to that. I think fans would be pleased. A 3 year building up of the roster like that should show much more improvement than Ryan Pace has shown in 6 years here. We should see some evidence of success after 3 or 4 seasons if your plan is followed. It at least makes sense to me.
And the reason is because Pace would leave behind a much younger and more solid roster than he inherited.
Exactly. Seems we are forgetting what exactly a team bereft of talent looks like. that team he took over had me all sorts of lugubrious. It was old, untalented and bad. There wasn't much there that was useable in the now let alone later.
The current team is frustratingly maddening b/c there is no reason they should be 5-6. This team, even as flawed as it is, should be 9-7. That is why you have to look at a coaching change, and that's why Pace needs to be looked at for firing also.
He missed on Tru fine that happens often when drafting top 5, but he also missed on the HC that could develop him, and then missed on where this team was in the trade for Mack, which cost them the ability to rebuild the OL w/much needed OT's. The only saving grace, and it's merely rumor, is that HH wanted Mack and insists on the Def being the face of the franchise, not the O. If he's being hamstrung like that then feel free to keep Pace around, if that isn't the case then he needs to go also.
And the reason is because Pace would leave behind a much younger and more solid roster than he inherited.
Exactly. Seems we are forgetting what exactly a team bereft of talent looks like. that team he took over had me all sorts of lugubrious. It was old, untalented and bad. There wasn't much there that was useable in the now let alone later.
The current team is frustratingly maddening b/c there is no reason they should be 5-6. This team, even as flawed as it is, should be 9-7. That is why you have to look at a coaching change, and that's why Pace needs to be looked at for firing also.
He missed on Tru fine that happens often when drafting top 5, but he also missed on the HC that could develop him, and then missed on where this team was in the trade for Mack, which cost them the ability to rebuild the OL w/much needed OT's. The only saving grace, and it's merely rumor, is that HH wanted Mack and insists on the Def being the face of the franchise, not the O. If he's being hamstrung like that then feel free to keep Pace around, if that isn't the case then he needs to go also.
I feel the same way. It is frustrating/maddening. And Pace has done some good things here. The Trubisky miss, I figure misses happen even with the best GMs. Yeah, it's disappointing for sure. But the miss doesn't bother me if the guy keeps pulling the draft trigger and keeps trying. It is crazy difficult to get a franchise QB... we all understand that. Just don't rest until you get one. Once we do get one (someday it will happen), make sure the guy has enough talent around him to have a fighting chance of succeeding here (skill players and blockers and a running game). At least give him a base-level of surrounding talent to support him.
I keep reminding myself (because I forget) that when you hire a first time GM there is a steep learning curve. The guy is going to make mistakes. It's similar with a first time head coach. Even the best are going to make mistakes. You just gotta hope you have a guy (GM or HC or both if both are first timers) who learns from mistakes and doesn't repeat them. Pace has made some mistakes. If he stays with the team I hope to see him do better in a number of areas. I hope he shows that he has learned from his mistakes and has the wisdom and humility to change. I'd be fine with that. I just want to see the team get better. But I do feel like there's a lot of change and improvement that is going to be needed before we see a really good team here that can make deep playoff runs.
Exactly. Seems we are forgetting what exactly a team bereft of talent looks like. that team he took over had me all sorts of lugubrious. It was old, untalented and bad. There wasn't much there that was useable in the now let alone later.
The current team is frustratingly maddening b/c there is no reason they should be 5-6. This team, even as flawed as it is, should be 9-7. That is why you have to look at a coaching change, and that's why Pace needs to be looked at for firing also.
He missed on Tru fine that happens often when drafting top 5, but he also missed on the HC that could develop him, and then missed on where this team was in the trade for Mack, which cost them the ability to rebuild the OL w/much needed OT's. The only saving grace, and it's merely rumor, is that HH wanted Mack and insists on the Def being the face of the franchise, not the O. If he's being hamstrung like that then feel free to keep Pace around, if that isn't the case then he needs to go also.
I feel the same way. It is frustrating/maddening. And Pace has done some good things here. The Trubisky miss, I figure misses happen even with the best GMs. Yeah, it's disappointing for sure. But the miss doesn't bother me if the guy keeps pulling the draft trigger and keeps trying. It is crazy difficult to get a franchise QB... we all understand that. Just don't rest until you get one. Once we do get one (someday it will happen), make sure the guy has enough talent around him to have a fighting chance of succeeding here (skill players and blockers and a running game). At least give him a base-level of surrounding talent to support him.
I keep reminding myself (because I forget) that when you hire a first time GM there is a steep learning curve. The guy is going to make mistakes. It's similar with a first time head coach. Even the best are going to make mistakes. You just gotta hope you have a guy (GM or HC or both if both are first timers) who learns from mistakes and doesn't repeat them. Pace has made some mistakes. If he stays with the team I hope to see him do better in a number of areas. I hope he shows that he has learned from his mistakes and has the wisdom and humility to change. I'd be fine with that. I just want to see the team get better. But I do feel like there's a lot of change and improvement that is going to be needed before we see a really good team here that can make deep playoff runs.
I really grow tired of the "he was young, there's a steep learning curve" bullshit excuse. I frankly think that's fkn horseshit. This isn't a participation-trophy league. Get it done or hit the road, no damn excuses.
Pace was in the Saints organization for years. He observed, assisted, and participated in multiple drafts. He wouldn't have had a shot at the job otherwise.
You don't need to be a seasoned NFL GM for a decade to know that a team just starting a new rebuild from scratch probably shouldn't risk its very first pick, a 7th overall, on a track star one-year-wonder WR-project when it doesn't have the basic basic foundational elements in place. Or that wasting a 2nd rounder on a TE from a Div3 school no one ever heard of probably wasn't a prudent choice. And so on.
Please stop making excuses for this guy. He is paid millions of dollars--not minimum wage--and he needs to be held to the same standards as his peers. If it took him 4 years to figure out how to stop royally screwing up, then maybe he isn't the right guy for the job nor does he deserve to keep it.
I feel the same way. It is frustrating/maddening. And Pace has done some good things here. The Trubisky miss, I figure misses happen even with the best GMs. Yeah, it's disappointing for sure. But the miss doesn't bother me if the guy keeps pulling the draft trigger and keeps trying. It is crazy difficult to get a franchise QB... we all understand that. Just don't rest until you get one. Once we do get one (someday it will happen), make sure the guy has enough talent around him to have a fighting chance of succeeding here (skill players and blockers and a running game). At least give him a base-level of surrounding talent to support him.
I keep reminding myself (because I forget) that when you hire a first time GM there is a steep learning curve. The guy is going to make mistakes. It's similar with a first time head coach. Even the best are going to make mistakes. You just gotta hope you have a guy (GM or HC or both if both are first timers) who learns from mistakes and doesn't repeat them. Pace has made some mistakes. If he stays with the team I hope to see him do better in a number of areas. I hope he shows that he has learned from his mistakes and has the wisdom and humility to change. I'd be fine with that. I just want to see the team get better. But I do feel like there's a lot of change and improvement that is going to be needed before we see a really good team here that can make deep playoff runs.
I really grow tired of the "he was young, there's a steep learning curve" bullshit excuse. I frankly think that's fkn horseshit. This isn't a participation-trophy league. Get it done or hit the road, no damn excuses.
Pace was in the Saints organization for years. He observed, assisted, and participated in multiple drafts. He wouldn't have had a shot at the job otherwise.
You don't need to be a seasoned NFL GM for a decade to know that a team just starting a new rebuild from scratch probably shouldn't risk its very first pick, a 7th overall, on a track star one-year-wonder WR-project when it doesn't have the basic basic foundational elements in place. Or that wasting a 2nd rounder on a TE from a Div3 school no one ever heard of probably wasn't a prudent choice. And so on.
Please stop making excuses for this guy. He is paid millions of dollars--not minimum wage--and he needs to be held to the same standards as his peers. If it took him 4 years to figure out how to stop royally screwing up, then maybe he isn't the right guy for the job nor does he deserve to keep it.
Was he a gm with the saints? No. Was he young and inexperienced? Yes. Those are facts, what is not is your opinion of if they are valid, and it's up for debate at best, what isn't is that we all agreed at the time it was valid.
I really grow tired of the "he was young, there's a steep learning curve" bullshit excuse. I frankly think that's fkn horseshit. This isn't a participation-trophy league. Get it done or hit the road, no damn excuses.
Pace was in the Saints organization for years. He observed, assisted, and participated in multiple drafts. He wouldn't have had a shot at the job otherwise.
You don't need to be a seasoned NFL GM for a decade to know that a team just starting a new rebuild from scratch probably shouldn't risk its very first pick, a 7th overall, on a track star one-year-wonder WR-project when it doesn't have the basic basic foundational elements in place. Or that wasting a 2nd rounder on a TE from a Div3 school no one ever heard of probably wasn't a prudent choice. And so on.
Please stop making excuses for this guy. He is paid millions of dollars--not minimum wage--and he needs to be held to the same standards as his peers. If it took him 4 years to figure out how to stop royally screwing up, then maybe he isn't the right guy for the job nor does he deserve to keep it.
Was he a gm with the saints? No. Was he young and inexperienced? Yes. Those are facts, what is not is your opinion of if they are valid, and it's up for debate at best, what isn't is that we all agreed at the time it was valid.
Was he involved and assisting with multiple drafts with the Saints? Yes
If us dumb fans and plenty of dumb sportswriters can see the unforced errors he made, then yeah I kinda feel like he doesn't get to hide under the "I'm the new guy" excuse. Put another way, if it takes 4 years as GM to figure out how to stop screwing up early in the draft (where the impact is highest), then maybe he ain't the guy. And please name me ANY NEW GM who isn't "inexperienced as a GM". They ALL are! Unlike with HCs, it is pretty rare for GMs to get 2nd and 3rd gigs. So the excuses being made for Pace fall apart when you compare him to his peers. Pretty much every new GM hire is new-as-a-GM and virtually all of them inherit bad situations. That's why the old GM got canned.
As JABF and others point out, this is entirely Ryan Pace's team now after 6+ years at the helm. With only a few exceptions, the entire roster and coaching staff was assembled by and under him. He will finish this season with 1 playoff appearance out of 6, zero playoff wins, 1 winning season in 6, and an overall record of approx 40-57. That's Ryan Pace's "work product".
Was he a gm with the saints? No. Was he young and inexperienced? Yes. Those are facts, what is not is your opinion of if they are valid, and it's up for debate at best, what isn't is that we all agreed at the time it was valid.
Was he involved and assisting with multiple drafts with the Saints? Yes
If us dumb fans and plenty of dumb sportswriters can see the unforced errors he made, then yeah I kinda feel like he doesn't get to hide under the "I'm the new guy" excuse. Put another way, if it takes 4 years as GM to figure out how to stop screwing up early in the draft (where the impact is highest), then maybe he ain't the guy. And please name me ANY NEW GM who isn't "inexperienced as a GM". They ALL are! Unlike with HCs, it is pretty rare for GMs to get 2nd and 3rd gigs. So the excuses being made for Pace fall apart when you compare him to his peers. Pretty much every new GM hire is new-as-a-GM and virtually all of them inherit bad situations. That's why the old GM got canned.
As JABF and others point out, this is entirely Ryan Pace's team now after 6+ years at the helm. With only a few exceptions, the entire roster and coaching staff was assembled by and under him. He will finish this season with 1 playoff appearance out of 6, zero playoff wins, 1 winning season in 6, and an overall record of approx 40-57. That's Ryan Pace's "work product".
Involved and assisting = to running and drafting? No it's not the same, and the Bears knew it and were allowing him room to grow and evolve and gain the experience.
As others have pointed out, the obvious? Ya no shit he's been the GM for 6 years, the first 2 were spent unburying the team from the fuckup that was Emery, and that giant ignorant "someone was going to pay it to him" contract they gave to Cutler that set the team back years.
And you really cannot say it was truly his team if he truly had no say in who his HC was going to be, so I think at best it's a technically his team while not really his team.
At this point we can just sit back and watch what happens with Pace and Nagy. We've all waded in with our thoughts, but it's up to George McCaskey. We are powerless to control any of this. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it either way. I'm almost (not quite but almost) to the point I really don't care what they do with the franchise. I do agree with a post riczaj01 made yesterday (I think it was yesterday) that for real change to take place they need to move on from Ted Phillips. I don't know if the McCaskeys would ever do that. But I'd sure like to see it happen. Would they replace him with someone competent? I don't know. But at least I'd like to see them try and improve the franchise with a meaningful move like that. What's the worst that can happen with any of this? We get to watch a crappy Bears team. Nothing new with that. And hey, maybe we get lucky and they actually do bring in good management of the franchise. One can hope anyway.