What would you rather have?

motm
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What would you rather have? Nov 2, 2016 13:55:52 GMT -6

Post by motm on Nov 2, 2016 13:55:52 GMT -6

Nov 2, 2016 13:43:38 GMT -6 hawkeye21 said:

Nov 2, 2016 13:40:07 GMT -6 motm said:

A win is meaningless once you're out of the playoff picture.

We're 2-6 and have 0 chance at the playoffs there for the wins we get only hurt us.

Now if this team was a 4-4 team we still have a shot at the playoffs.

Remember this team is last in the NFC North...

But wouldn't you like to see the team improve every week? Don't you think that builds towards a winning culture and can spill over into the next season? I think that's more important than a top 3 pick. They can still try and win games and end up with a top 8 pick. I think that's still high enough for a great draft pick.

I rather have a legit playmaker who can give this team the success it needs for years to come.

I don't think short term. I think long term.

This team still needs as much talent as we can get.

Every year I want us to do good but once we missed that playoff spot with no chance of coming back I rather improve the team with a higher draft pick.

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Last Edit: Nov 2, 2016 13:57:00 GMT -6 by motm

brasilbear
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What would you rather have? Nov 2, 2016 13:57:42 GMT -6

Post by brasilbear on Nov 2, 2016 13:57:42 GMT -6

Nov 2, 2016 13:43:38 GMT -6 hawkeye21 said:

Nov 2, 2016 13:40:07 GMT -6 motm said:

A win is meaningless once you're out of the playoff picture.

We're 2-6 and have 0 chance at the playoffs there for the wins we get only hurt us.

Now if this team was a 4-4 team we still have a shot at the playoffs.

Remember this team is last in the NFC North...

But wouldn't you like to see the team improve every week? Don't you think that builds towards a winning culture and can spill over into the next season? I think that's more important than a top 3 pick. They can still try and win games and end up with a top 8 pick. I think that's still high enough for a great draft pick.

So next game, when McPhee has Winston in his sights should he not sack him because that puts the team at risk of not getting a higher draft pick? Should Berkley start over Cutler? Maybe Langford gets 80% of the carries and not Howard? Should Porter not grab that flat pass because if he takes it to the house the Bears draft 8th instead of 5th? Why not go all 76ers and shut down Trevathan, Freeman, Long, Sitton, Howard, Goldman and anyone else for the season? Is this what you are advocating? Because you are coming dangerously close to that. Fox and Pace would face a riot in the locker-room if that were to happen.

And playoffs? You are the only one mentioning playoffs.

This is another line you have drawn in the sand and are now weaving and bobbing to defend. It sounds all nice to say "TANK! LOSE EVERYTHING!!" But in practice it doesn't work that way. But keep defending it.

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hawkeye21
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What would you rather have? Nov 2, 2016 14:01:01 GMT -6

Post by hawkeye21 on Nov 2, 2016 14:01:01 GMT -6

Nov 2, 2016 13:53:47 GMT -6 @bearsinhouston said:

Nov 2, 2016 13:43:38 GMT -6 hawkeye21 said:

But wouldn't you like to see the team improve every week? Don't you think that builds towards a winning culture and can spill over into the next season? I think that's more important than a top 3 pick. They can still try and win games and end up with a top 8 pick. I think that's still high enough for a great draft pick.

But improving is not winning. Not until you hit that tipping point Xaos talks about. So you can want the team to improve but still hope they lose to get the pick. When you are out of it, winning does not matter so much. Improving does. Now the winning culture thing.... yes, that is real, but it is also subjective if it is more or less important than the high pick. I say less because that culture does not carry over for sure. People change and believe me, when you play well, that swagger develops awfully fast. You don't need last year. The flip side is when you play bad, last year does not matter either. you can be down even if last year was good. The pick is real. It is something that you can use to make the team better. So for me, that is more important. Others might think that I am totally off base. But it's still an opinion.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your opinion. I think it would be beneficial for the team to get better every week and play well but somehow still lose all of their games in order to get a high draft pick. I still losing that much does something to a player's psyche though. Players don't like being on one of the worst teams in the league. It's not like baseball where you have players locked up for years and all buying in on a rebuild. The players in the NFL have shorter careers and want to win now. If they can't with their current team they want to move on to one that does.

I want a team that feels it's getting better every game and starting to win games. I want a team that feels it's close to winning it all next year. A 2-14 team does not feel that way generally.

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motm
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What would you rather have? Nov 2, 2016 14:02:00 GMT -6

Post by motm on Nov 2, 2016 14:02:00 GMT -6

Nov 2, 2016 13:57:42 GMT -6 brasilbear said:

Nov 2, 2016 13:43:38 GMT -6 hawkeye21 said:

But wouldn't you like to see the team improve every week? Don't you think that builds towards a winning culture and can spill over into the next season? I think that's more important than a top 3 pick. They can still try and win games and end up with a top 8 pick. I think that's still high enough for a great draft pick.

So next game, when McPhee has Winston in his sights should he not sack him because that puts the team at risk of not getting a higher draft pick? Should Berkley start over Cutler? Maybe Langford gets 80% of the carries and not Howard? Should Porter not grab that flat pass because if he takes it to the house the Bears draft 8th instead of 5th? Why not go all 76ers and shut down Trevathan, Freeman, Long, Sitton, Howard, Goldman and anyone else for the season? Is this what you are advocating? Because you are coming dangerously close to that. Fox and Pace would face a riot in the locker-room if that were to happen.

And playoffs? You are the only one mentioning playoffs.

This is another line you have drawn in the sand and are now weaving and bobbing to defend. It sounds all nice to say "TANK! LOSE EVERYTHING!!" But in practice it doesn't work that way. But keep defending it.

That is if Mcphee can do it. Remember we were playing against the worst O-line in the league.

I take Howard over Langford do to the fact that he's a rookie that needs as much experience as possible.

Should we win 7 of the next 8 games and continue this mediocrity of sucking but still good enough to get out of the top 10 like we did with Lovie every year? You see how far that went.

Brian Urlacher was a game changer for us when we drafted him at #9... Rookie of the Year as well.

We have no Urlacher type players on this team.

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What would you rather have? Nov 2, 2016 14:02:14 GMT -6

Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2016 14:02:14 GMT -6

Nov 2, 2016 13:57:42 GMT -6 brasilbear said:

Nov 2, 2016 13:43:38 GMT -6 hawkeye21 said:

But wouldn't you like to see the team improve every week? Don't you think that builds towards a winning culture and can spill over into the next season? I think that's more important than a top 3 pick. They can still try and win games and end up with a top 8 pick. I think that's still high enough for a great draft pick.

So next game, when McPhee has Winston in his sights should he not sack him because that puts the team at risk of not getting a higher draft pick? Should Berkley start over Cutler? Maybe Langford gets 80% of the carries and not Howard? Should Porter not grab that flat pass because if he takes it to the house the Bears draft 8th instead of 5th? Why not go all 76ers and shut down Trevathan, Freeman, Long, Sitton, Howard, Goldman and anyone else for the season? Is this what you are advocating? Because you are coming dangerously close to that. Fox and Pace would face a riot in the locker-room if that were to happen.

And playoffs? You are the only one mentioning playoffs.

This is another line you have drawn in the sand and are now weaving and bobbing to defend. It sounds all nice to say "TANK! LOSE EVERYTHING!!" But in practice it doesn't work that way. But keep defending it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't hear him say try to lose either.

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What would you rather have? Nov 2, 2016 14:03:15 GMT -6

Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2016 14:03:15 GMT -6

Nov 2, 2016 14:01:01 GMT -6 hawkeye21 said:

Nov 2, 2016 13:53:47 GMT -6 @bearsinhouston said:

But improving is not winning. Not until you hit that tipping point Xaos talks about. So you can want the team to improve but still hope they lose to get the pick. When you are out of it, winning does not matter so much. Improving does. Now the winning culture thing.... yes, that is real, but it is also subjective if it is more or less important than the high pick. I say less because that culture does not carry over for sure. People change and believe me, when you play well, that swagger develops awfully fast. You don't need last year. The flip side is when you play bad, last year does not matter either. you can be down even if last year was good. The pick is real. It is something that you can use to make the team better. So for me, that is more important. Others might think that I am totally off base. But it's still an opinion.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your opinion. I think it would be beneficial for the team to get better every week and play well but somehow still lose all of their games in order to get a high draft pick. I still losing that much does something to a player's psyche though. Players don't like being on one of the worst teams in the league. It's not like baseball where you have players locked up for years and all buying in on a rebuild. The players in the NFL have shorter careers and want to win now. If they can't with their current team they want to move on to one that does.

I want a team that feels it's getting better every game and starting to win games. I want a team that feels it's close to winning it all next year. A 2-14 team does not feel that way generally.

Definitely can't argue with your opinion.

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brasilbear
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What would you rather have? Nov 2, 2016 14:03:48 GMT -6 xaosgorilla likes this

Post by brasilbear on Nov 2, 2016 14:03:48 GMT -6

Nov 2, 2016 13:53:47 GMT -6 @bearsinhouston said:

Nov 2, 2016 13:43:38 GMT -6 hawkeye21 said:

But wouldn't you like to see the team improve every week? Don't you think that builds towards a winning culture and can spill over into the next season? I think that's more important than a top 3 pick. They can still try and win games and end up with a top 8 pick. I think that's still high enough for a great draft pick.

But improving is not winning. Not until you hit that tipping point Xaos talks about. So you can want the team to improve but still hope they lose to get the pick. When you are out of it, winning does not matter so much. Improving does. Now the winning culture thing.... yes, that is real, but it is also subjective if it is more or less important than the high pick. I say less because that culture does not carry over for sure. People change and believe me, when you play well, that swagger develops awfully fast. You don't need last year. The flip side is when you play bad, last year does not matter either. you can be down even if last year was good. The pick is real. It is something that you can use to make the team better. So for me, that is more important. Others might think that I am totally off base. But it's still an opinion.

Yes. I agree BUT the short term needs to be balanced with the long term. If Floyd improves, wins will result. If the OL gells, wins will result. If the secondary improves wins will result. Not only will the young players improve, they can see the benefit of improving. I don't think it is as easy as some are suggesting to simply say improve but don't win. I dont' think you can have one without the other as sharply separated as people think.

Winning without improving would be pointless, this I can agree with.

But

Pushing for improvement while saying "don't win" IMO is impossible. Can't have one without the other.

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hawkeye21
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What would you rather have? Nov 2, 2016 14:05:17 GMT -6

Post by hawkeye21 on Nov 2, 2016 14:05:17 GMT -6

Nov 2, 2016 13:57:42 GMT -6 brasilbear said:

Nov 2, 2016 13:43:38 GMT -6 hawkeye21 said:

But wouldn't you like to see the team improve every week? Don't you think that builds towards a winning culture and can spill over into the next season? I think that's more important than a top 3 pick. They can still try and win games and end up with a top 8 pick. I think that's still high enough for a great draft pick.

So next game, when McPhee has Winston in his sights should he not sack him because that puts the team at risk of not getting a higher draft pick? Should Berkley start over Cutler? Maybe Langford gets 80% of the carries and not Howard? Should Porter not grab that flat pass because if he takes it to the house the Bears draft 8th instead of 5th? Why not go all 76ers and shut down Trevathan, Freeman, Long, Sitton, Howard, Goldman and anyone else for the season? Is this what you are advocating? Because you are coming dangerously close to that. Fox and Pace would face a riot in the locker-room if that were to happen.

And playoffs? You are the only one mentioning playoffs.

This is another line you have drawn in the sand and are now weaving and bobbing to defend. It sounds all nice to say "TANK! LOSE EVERYTHING!!" But in practice it doesn't work that way. But keep defending it.

This was in response to motm and not me right?

Remember at the beginning of the year when everyone was guessing how the Bears would finish. I believe most had the Bears around 8-8, give or take a game or two. Most figured the Bears would miss the playoffs yet no one suggested tanking the season then. How is it that many didn't expect them to make the playoffs but thought they would get 8 wins and didn't suggest tanking?

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brasilbear
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What would you rather have? Nov 2, 2016 14:09:13 GMT -6 hawkeye21 likes this

Post by brasilbear on Nov 2, 2016 14:09:13 GMT -6

Nov 2, 2016 14:02:00 GMT -6 motm said:

Nov 2, 2016 13:57:42 GMT -6 brasilbear said:

So next game, when McPhee has Winston in his sights should he not sack him because that puts the team at risk of not getting a higher draft pick? Should Berkley start over Cutler? Maybe Langford gets 80% of the carries and not Howard? Should Porter not grab that flat pass because if he takes it to the house the Bears draft 8th instead of 5th? Why not go all 76ers and shut down Trevathan, Freeman, Long, Sitton, Howard, Goldman and anyone else for the season? Is this what you are advocating? Because you are coming dangerously close to that. Fox and Pace would face a riot in the locker-room if that were to happen.

And playoffs? You are the only one mentioning playoffs.

This is another line you have drawn in the sand and are now weaving and bobbing to defend. It sounds all nice to say "TANK! LOSE EVERYTHING!!" But in practice it doesn't work that way. But keep defending it.

That is if Mcphee can do it. Remember we were playing against the worst O-line in the league.

I take Howard over Langford do to the fact that he's a rookie that needs as much experience as possible.

Should we win 7 of the next 8 games and continue this mediocrity of sucking but still good enough to get out of the top 10 like we did with Lovie every year? You see how far that went.

Brian Urlacher was a game changer for us when we drafted him at #9... Rookie of the Year as well.

We have no Urlacher type players on this team.

Doesn't matter if he can do it or not. Again, thats not what you are arguing for. You want McPhee to not take the sack, for Porter to not get the pick, for Howard to not get the TD, for the OFF to not score points, because the wins are meaningless.

If the experience leads to wins, doesn't your position mean that Langford should be starting?

And you don't want the 9th pick, you want a top 3, so again, nice bob and weave. Letting the team play out the season and gaining experience will get them to enough wins to draft in the top 10. I'm thinking 6-10, 7-9 is the limit here for the Bears. So if your best argument is pointing to Urlacher at 9 whats your point again? Is it lose on purpose to get into the top 3 or can they play well enough to win a few games, gain experience and draft in the top 10? Does trading up not factor in here? You were all for it before the last draft. Move up to get Buckner or trade down.

Nov 2, 2016 14:05:17 GMT -6 hawkeye21 said:

This was in response to motm and not me right?

Remember at the beginning of the year when everyone was guessing how the Bears would finish.  I believe most had the Bears around 8-8, give or take a game or two.  Most figured the Bears would miss the playoffs yet no one suggested tanking the season then.  How is it that many didn't expect them to make the playoffs but thought they would get 8 wins and didn't suggest tanking?

Yes not directed at you.

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Last Edit: Nov 2, 2016 14:10:15 GMT -6 by brasilbear

britishbearfan
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What would you rather have? Nov 2, 2016 14:11:23 GMT -6 AlexM likes this

Post by britishbearfan on Nov 2, 2016 14:11:23 GMT -6

The draft is such a lottery that I don't think the benefit of a higher pick is sufficient enough of a prize to make tanking the season worthwhile. I also think you need to be successful in both the draft and free agency if you want to build a winning team. If you are a hopeless 2-14 team then good luck signing any decent free agents - or even re-signing your best players.

Even if it was a successful strategy I wouldn't want the Bears to go down that route. I would see it a dishonourable approach and it would sour any future success for me. I see the first pick as compensation for being terrible. Nice to have if you are in that position - but not something to strive for.

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