Yeah, I mean I can't argue with a straight face that Glennon is a more talented QB than Cutler...not at all. As you said...it was complicated. Obviously now, looking back on the results, we can say that just about anyone would have been better than Glennon, but at the time I certainly got the appeal. It was a lot of money, but thankfully we have an out.
Sanchez...I don't know...I guess I just don't care enough about the #3 QB to get worked up about it. As a player I know the value of having an older more experienced player walk me through stuff and give me an ear was valuable...so perhaps thats where I'm coming from in my view.
Regarding my point on free agency...I personally believe you use both. I think the bulk of your talent should come via the draft and you supplement with FA, signing a high priced guy when you believe you're about to make a run. Take the Giants for example. If you look at their drafts from 03 to 08....they were LOADED! They drafted really well and the bulk of their super bowl teams talent came from those drafts. They signed a guy like Antonio Pierce, who filled a key need, when they were ready to make their playoff run. My frustration is it seems for years people on this board have wanted our GM to build the team up through the draft, and now when we have a GM doing that...people want him to spend like a drunken sailer in free agency...so I'm just confused as to where people really stand here.
I'm not sure I have seen too many people with that position.
What would you call being all upset about not spending 70 plus million on Stephon Gilmour?
I posted this in the other thread (the player talent one), but maybe it belongs here too.
I'm not trying to beat up on Pace (I'm hoping he works out for us), but look at our present roster (LINK here) and look at it in light of a roster that will win division championships, instead of being in last place annually. And to be fair, you can look at the injured as if they were healthy, so you give Pace every benefit of the doubt.
But look at it. Soberly. Objectively. Without any homer glasses on.
It is populated with too many mediocre to downright bad players. And where are the "difference makers" on that roster? Any 1st team All Pros? Even one? Not that we need to have a bunch of All Pros to win Super Bowls (or even division championships). But none? Pull up one of the power teams in the NFL now, and look over THEIR roster. Man, we are not even in the ballpark with a power team.
I understand that 3 years of Pace's roster building are not enough to perfect a roster. I get that. But our talent (looked at objectively) is a ways away from where it needs to be. No coach is going to turn chicken crap into chicken salad. No pixie dust here. We need some better players.
I think the mistake is looking at it vs a division championship roster, when you should be comparing it to the PREVIOUS roster. Division champions are not built over night. Do I think we should be better than we are? Yep. Do I think we're actually better than we are? Yep. As I said in my reply to BiH...I don't think some of the talent on this roster is being utilized the way it should be. Thats not on Pace, thats on Fox and Co. Now...once this season is over it's on Pace and Co to get the right people in here to utilize the talent we have correctly.
The roster is incrementally better, and I also admit that it is a process to transform the roster from what it was to where it needs to be to reach an objective of winning championships again. The goal/objective for the franchise should be to win championships. We are 3 years in on the rebuild.
But how far has that talent needle actually moved?
When I look at that roster today, I see that the needle has moved, but I don't believe it has moved as far as it should have under Pace. I just don't see it. I understand, fully, that Pace needs more time to complete his job rebuilding the talent here. But right now, it doesn't look good to me. I guess it all depends upon where we set the bar of expectations for the franchise. Personally, I expected the roster to be better at this point than what it is. But I'm willing to watch and see what Pace does this off-season.
I think the mistake is looking at it vs a division championship roster, when you should be comparing it to the PREVIOUS roster. Division champions are not built over night. Do I think we should be better than we are? Yep. Do I think we're actually better than we are? Yep. As I said in my reply to BiH...I don't think some of the talent on this roster is being utilized the way it should be. Thats not on Pace, thats on Fox and Co. Now...once this season is over it's on Pace and Co to get the right people in here to utilize the talent we have correctly.
The roster is incrementally better, and I also admit that it is a process to transform the roster from what it was to where it needs to be to reach an objective of winning championships again. The goal/objective for the franchise should be to win championships. We are 3 years in on the rebuild.
But how far has that talent needle actually moved?
When I look at that roster today, I see that the needle has moved, but I don't believe it has moved as far as it should have under Pace. I just don't see it. I understand, fully, that Pace needs more time to complete his job rebuilding the talent here. But right now, it doesn't look good to me. I guess it all depends upon where we set the bar of expectations for the franchise. Personally, I expected the roster to be better at this point than what it is. But I'm willing to watch and see what Pace does this off-season.
Yeah...I get that. I think a good comparison might be a team like the Raiders. They had some bad teams when Reggie McKenzie took over that team as the GM. Those teams went 4-12, 4-12, and 3-13 in his first 3 seasons as GM. The roster talent was increased incrementally and improved to 7-9. They drafted smart and didn't go crazy in free agency. Last year, with the talent they added they felt like they could make a run and added some key pieces in free agency and they were 12-4.
I'm not sure I have seen too many people with that position.
What would you call being all upset about not spending 70 plus million on Stephon Gilmour?
Why do you keep bringing up this one deal as if Gilmore was the ONLY UFA out there. And I don't believe anyone is upset we didn't get into a bidding war over him. Plus it's only $31 mil guaranteed at signing. He has another $9 mil guaranteed in March 2019 if he's still on the roster and $65 mil/5 years all day both of which he may never see.
IMHO no one can reasonably expect to rebuild a team to a championship caliber using only the draft. We did it between 1974-1984 but times have changed. Other teams will add key UFAs and we will continue to lag them if we do not just as we have for three years now. Drafting is better but also slower and less predictable overall.
I'm not denying that the emphasis should be on drafting but not at the exclusion of adding top talent via FA. How many All Pros or even blue rated guys has Pace drafted in three years? We've added some good core talent but all of them still need to show more consistency from game to game. If not we'd be winning more often than we are.
IMHO this coming year will be the most pivotal in Paces career. He needs to hire a strong HC and staff, score far bigger than he has before in FA, and somehow pull of some magic in a draft where once again he's without one mid round pick and needs two or three more potential starters. Even two of the three is tall order brother.
What would you call being all upset about not spending 70 plus million on Stephon Gilmour?
Why do you keep bringing up this one deal as if Gilmore was the ONLY UFA out there. And I don't believe anyone is upset we didn't get into a bidding war over him. Plus it's only $31 mil guaranteed at signing. He has another $9 mil guaranteed in March 2019 if he's still on the roster and $65 mil/5 years all day both of which he may never see.
IMHO no one can reasonably expect to rebuild a team to a championship caliber using only the draft. We did it between 1974-1984 but times have changed. Other teams will add key UFAs and we will continue to lag them if we do not just as we have for three years now. Drafting is better but also slower and less predictable overall.
I'm not denying that the emphasis should be on drafting but not at the exclusion of adding top talent via FA. How many All Pros or even blue rated guys has Pace drafted in three years? We've added some good core talent but all of them still need to show more consistency from game to game. If not we'd be winning more often than we are.
IMHO this coming year will be the most pivotal in Paces career. He needs to hire a strong HC and staff, score far bigger than he has before in FA, and somehow pull of some magic in a draft where once again he's without one mid round pick and needs two or three more potential starters. Even two of the three is tall order brother.
I keep bringing it up because people were apoplectic around here when we didn't get him...and thats not much of an exaggeration by me.
As for point number 2...see my previous post about the Giants and their drafts from 03 to 08. And I never said you don't use free agency, but I'm not going to give a guy over 5% of my salary cap when the team isn't ready to compete for the playoffs. If I do, thats going to inhibit my ability to do that when the team IS ready to compete. As for results...see my Oakland Raiders example in a previous post.
As for the last point, I agree and have stated as much in several posts. If Pace wants to keep this job this off season is critical for him.
I think the mistake is looking at it vs a division championship roster, when you should be comparing it to the PREVIOUS roster. Division champions are not built over night. Do I think we should be better than we are? Yep. Do I think we're actually better than we are? Yep. As I said in my reply to BiH...I don't think some of the talent on this roster is being utilized the way it should be. Thats not on Pace, thats on Fox and Co. Now...once this season is over it's on Pace and Co to get the right people in here to utilize the talent we have correctly.
The roster is incrementally better, and I also admit that it is a process to transform the roster from what it was to where it needs to be to reach an objective of winning championships again. The goal/objective for the franchise should be to win championships. We are 3 years in on the rebuild.
But how far has that talent needle actually moved?
When I look at that roster today, I see that the needle has moved, but I don't believe it has moved as far as it should have under Pace. I just don't see it. I understand, fully, that Pace needs more time to complete his job rebuilding the talent here. But right now, it doesn't look good to me. I guess it all depends upon where we set the bar of expectations for the franchise. Personally, I expected the roster to be better at this point than what it is. But I'm willing to watch and see what Pace does this off-season.
And I agree. The only possible explanation for 2017, and not even a good one, is that Pace knew he was going to fire Focks after this season and simply didn't want to tie much money up in longer term deals for player who may not fit a new scheme. Even so there are still players who will fit most any scheme.
I'm willing to give him a pass for 2017 because I feel GMcC forced much of this by insisting Focks stay on but that's the end of it. Another bad coaching hire followed by a weak FA period and a failure to draft at least two immediate impact type and I'll have had it with Pace as well. No winee, no watchee.
One "positive" about Pace that I forgot to mention is that when we hired a young and new GM, of course there is a learning curve. It is realistic to expect him to make his share of mistakes. That is important to factor in. Pace does strike me as a sharp young guy who could learn from any mistakes and end up being a great GM for us. Therein lies the challenge when we try to evaluate him. On the one hand, you look at what he has actually accomplished to date (both the good and the bad), but then you try to predict the next few years with him as GM (with the Ted Phillips and McCaskey factors accounted for) and you wonder what the outcome will be for him here in Chicago. It could be very good.
What would you call being all upset about not spending 70 plus million on Stephon Gilmour?
Who would you say has that position?
Well...
"He has completely whiffed on FA and I give him an F at the moment. Glennon does not make up for any of the horrible blunders on Gilmore, Jefferson, or Bouye. Just out and out F'ing cheap."
"Couldn't agree more. Pace has ****ed this up badly. For a team with jacksquat at CB and $75m in cap space to miss on Gilmore and now Bouye is ****ing inexcusable."
"I've been a big Pace fan, even though I disagreed with the white pick when it went down, but his underbidding for Gilmore was ****ing dumb."
"They should have done that with Gilmore who was the most proven of the bunch. I'm really annoyed at Pace for f'ing that up."
Those are just a few of the quotes after we didn't sign Gilmore. Not only that but I remember having numerous back and forths with people unbelievably upset that we didn't just empty the bank simply so we could say we signed a guy we targeted...because apparently thats how good teams are built.
Why do you keep bringing up this one deal as if Gilmore was the ONLY UFA out there. And I don't believe anyone is upset we didn't get into a bidding war over him. Plus it's only $31 mil guaranteed at signing. He has another $9 mil guaranteed in March 2019 if he's still on the roster and $65 mil/5 years all day both of which he may never see.
IMHO no one can reasonably expect to rebuild a team to a championship caliber using only the draft. We did it between 1974-1984 but times have changed. Other teams will add key UFAs and we will continue to lag them if we do not just as we have for three years now. Drafting is better but also slower and less predictable overall.
I'm not denying that the emphasis should be on drafting but not at the exclusion of adding top talent via FA. How many All Pros or even blue rated guys has Pace drafted in three years? We've added some good core talent but all of them still need to show more consistency from game to game. If not we'd be winning more often than we are.
IMHO this coming year will be the most pivotal in Paces career. He needs to hire a strong HC and staff, score far bigger than he has before in FA, and somehow pull of some magic in a draft where once again he's without one mid round pick and needs two or three more potential starters. Even two of the three is tall order brother.
I keep bringing it up because people were apoplectic around here when we didn't get him...and thats not much of an exaggeration by me.
As for point number 2...see my previous post about the Giants and their drafts from 03 to 08. And I never said you don't use free agency, but I'm not going to give a guy over 5% of my salary cap when the team isn't ready to compete for the playoffs. If I do, thats going to inhibit my ability to do that when the team IS ready to compete. As for results...see my Oakland Raiders example in a previous post.
As for the last point, I agree and have stated as much in several posts. If Pace wants to keep this job this off season is critical for him.
I'm still not sure who was all that apoplectic over Gilmore specifically but rather more over the lack of results as far as signing any top UFAs. It seems to me Gilmore was somewhat of a proxy for that far more that it was that we just had to have Gilmore. At least that was my feeling about it.
The exaggeration is only how much you believe he signed for. That part was inaccurate. It's a $65 mil/$13 mil a year deal on average and at this rate he won't see even half that before NE dumps him. Personally I was far more upset we let AJ go than not getting Gilmore. Amukamara has played fairly well and Pace should probably try to keep him.
As for point #2 we're already paying guys 5% of our cap or close to it in guarantees and in some cases failing to get our money's worth. My issue is that we're paying and have paid too many of that type that much already. I do get the part about not overspending on one guy who can put you over the top when you're not competitive yet but signing younger guys long term should assure you have them when you do and they can also help us get there. In most cases thirty year old plus guys on the backside of their careers won't.
Pace has not only got to change his game he's got to up it considerably.