Bears O was 28th in points last year. Not sure how much worse it could get.
+1 And I am not saying Pace hasn't made mistakes. But I want to reserve my overall judgment of the team until I see this 2017 team play this year. I am super-curious to watch this offense perform. Nothing against Cutler, but I am relieved he is gone. Towards the end of his tenure here, the man was surrounded by a lot of talent, yet the offenses often disappointed. I went back last week and looked at some of those rosters on offense. He had some very solid weapons in the latter years. Finally, we couldn't even blame the OL for the offense. And I'm an OL zealot.
We will have a lot of new young players on offense, and a new QB. It may be a rough start initially but as the season progresses we may be very pleasantly surprised by this offense. Even with Glennon. But whether or not that happens, it seems crazy to give up on this year's team before the draft has even been completed and the final 53-man roster crafted - and "real" football games played in the "real" season... regular season games & not the pre-season glorified practice games. I am in that "wait and see" mode right now.
Pace, like it or not, has been actively removing just about any and all pieces from before he was here. Has has wanted to rebuild this entire team from the ground up and he has done it. And the thing is, this team has been average to bad for so long, what's it matter if he did start over? Fact is if the O is worse, it will be only slightly; and I'm not sure there is proof, other then losing AJ that it is worse.
+1 And I am not saying Pace hasn't made mistakes. But I want to reserve my overall judgment of the team until I see this 2017 team play this year. I am super-curious to watch this offense perform. Nothing against Cutler, but I am relieved he is gone. Towards the end of his tenure here, the man was surrounded by a lot of talent, yet the offenses often disappointed. I went back last week and looked at some of those rosters on offense. He had some very solid weapons in the latter years. Finally, we couldn't even blame the OL for the offense. And I'm an OL zealot.
We will have a lot of new young players on offense, and a new QB. It may be a rough start initially but as the season progresses we may be very pleasantly surprised by this offense. Even with Glennon. But whether or not that happens, it seems crazy to give up on this year's team before the draft has even been completed and the final 53-man roster crafted - and "real" football games played in the "real" season... regular season games & not the pre-season glorified practice games. I am in that "wait and see" mode right now.
It is hard to regress when you win 3 games!
We've never been shy about difficult accomplishments.
Ok...so who...at any position was of the caliber of Julius Peppers in this free agency?
I would guess most of those who were ranked as top players at their positions. It's a pretty subjective question. You and I may not agree on any of them so again I'll say that I am not getting into specific players either in UFA or the draft. I'm only looking at the sum total of above average and impact players we have and it's lacking.
Overall we seem to be losing more above average or impact players than we're gaining because we aren't replacing them in kind with players at their level. No one can argue that the caliber of the offense has not regressed. This is what I see and I would approach UFA differently because of it.
The only "losses" on offense this offseason were Cutler and Jeffery. Let's take them one by one.
I have a hard time calling the Cutler-Glennon transition (plus a draft pick coming up) a "loss". I know you will likely disagree. The team was moving on from Jay no matter what and justifiably so. It was tried and didn't work out. Some of that is on the team and some of it on Jay personally. Regardless, Cutler is injured (still not medically cleared) and he's 33-34 now. Glennon may outplay Cutler or he may play at a similar level going forward but he's younger, healthier, and has potential upside that Jay no longer has.
Jeffery was a loss no doubt but it's become apparent from the deal he took with Philly that he simply didn't want to be here anymore. Due to his injuries/suspension, his production the last 2 years was no better that what Wright, Wheaton, and Meredith have also done in their careers. I agree that AJ probably has a higher ceiling than those 3 if he returns to his previous form from 2013-14. We shall see if he does. Pace is undoubtedly hoping Kevin White finally produces this coming year like his draft status says he should and that Cam takes the next step.
Everyone else on O is returning and Sims has been added as a good blocking TE who has some receiving ability to be exploited. All in all, I don't see the offense as that much worse off and we haven't even drafted yet. I think this O can be reasonably good if Logg calls an offense that isn't as pass happy as last year.
I would guess most of those who were ranked as top players at their positions. It's a pretty subjective question. You and I may not agree on any of them so again I'll say that I am not getting into specific players either in UFA or the draft. I'm only looking at the sum total of above average and impact players we have and it's lacking.
Overall we seem to be losing more above average or impact players than we're gaining because we aren't replacing them in kind with players at their level. No one can argue that the caliber of the offense has not regressed. This is what I see and I would approach UFA differently because of it.
The only "losses" on offense this offseason were Cutler and Jeffery. Let's take them one by one.
I have a hard time calling the Cutler-Glennon transition (plus a draft pick coming up) a "loss". I know you will likely disagree. The team was moving on from Jay no matter what and justifiably so. It was tried and didn't work out. Some of that is on the team and some of it on Jay personally. Regardless, Cutler is injured (still not medically cleared) and he's 33-34 now. Glennon may outplay Cutler or he may play at a similar level going forward but he's younger, healthier, and has potential upside that Jay no longer has.
Jeffery was a loss no doubt but it's become apparent from the deal he took with Philly that he simply didn't want to be here anymore. Due to his injuries/suspension, his production the last 2 years was no better that what Wright, Wheaton, and Meredith have also done in their careers. I agree that AJ probably has a higher ceiling than those 3 if he returns to his previous form from 2013-14. We shall see if he does. Pace is undoubtedly hoping Kevin White finally produces this coming year like his draft status says he should and that Cam takes the next step.
Everyone else on O is returning and Sims has been added as a good blocking TE who has some receiving ability to be exploited. All in all, I don't see the offense as that much worse off and we haven't even drafted yet. I think this O can be reasonably good if Logg calls an offense that isn't as pass happy as last year.
Actually I don't and you demanding it won't get it done either. I don't play by your rules I play by mine.
I've posted several times before this that I'm not looking at any individual players as examples of anything specific. Just the overall ranking of those players and overall we are losing out on higher tier players and replacing them with mid to lower tier players yet Pace is calling most of this process upgrading.
I used Pep only as an example of a top tier type player. Over the past two offseasons there have been at least a dozen players who would all rank as top tier players at their positions and we've signed none of them. You seen to want to debate who of them is better or worse than Pep and that was never my thrust so I'm not goin' there.
If you believe we upgraded fine. I don't. I wouldn't even call it neutral. I see a GM and HC basically turning over a roster attempting to infuse it with "their type of players" and to date that approach has lost ground as most might expect it would when you reduce the overall talent level on any team.
This is like the fable "The Emperor's New Clothes".
Some of you all see the roster as being a whole lot less naked than I do. That OK with me if you do I'm just not into the self deception of it all right now. Those days are gone.
So this is all just overall talk, no specific solutions? Well, thats not much really.
Alex the day the Bears hire me to make or suggest personnel moves I'll get more specific and you'll all see that but they haven't called me and asked me to do that. Let's get real for a minute and stop playing fantasy football and mock GMs.
What I say or you say or suggest will not influence or impact what gets done at Halas Hall. We've all been doing this for years right along with the media. There are countless lists of UFA targets the Bears should sign. There are also dozens of mocks with a new one coming out about once a day from someone. That stuff is all out there and all I'm saying is I don't care to add my own opinions to it this year. I'm taking a different stance.
IMHO "Moon" Mullin approached is as I have been. I'm looking at various positions and/or units trying to figure out whether we gained ground (a +/plus), we lost ground (a -/minus), or it ended up being basically neutral. That's it. I'm not gonna debate whether Stephon Gilmore is a better player today than Julius Peppers was in 2010 which is what butkus seems to want to debate. There's no accurate way to do that objectively.
My point was simple and I thought easily enough understood. It's based on the question of whether or not Pace can rebuild this team to a championship level quickly and effectively using only the draft as his primary source of top tier core and impact players. I'm not the only one asking that question either. Many others have raised their eyebrows over his approach to this as well and have questioned the same thing. Can he do that?
FA is used as a way to fill immediate needs that cannot be as easily filled in an upcoming draft. By avoiding top tier players is he lengthening the time frame it will take to field a top tier team? It's not hard to compute objectively that if you lose top tier talent and fail to replace it in kind you regress. Isn't that exactly what happened to our defense as the top guys from the 2000s began to age and retire or were released? Isn't that what's happening to our offense now? So are we gaining ground or losing ground? This is the point I'm making.
I'm gonna let you all wrangle over specific players both in FA and the draft. It's not that I have no opinions about it. It's more based on this being less important than the overall scheme of what's being done to manage the team more effectively and rebuild it and as I see it nothing has changed over the past three years. We keep doing the same old shit and each spring we all look forward to better results. Are we getting them? Not yet.
So I've simply stopped looking forward to better days and instead stayed focused on actions rather than words. Like I've said. From now on they have to show improvement on the field not in the media or on the corporate website. In short they need to win.
So this is all just overall talk, no specific solutions? Well, thats not much really.
Alex the day the Bears hire me to make or suggest personnel moves I'll get more specific and you'll all see that but they haven't called me and asked me to do that. Let's get real for a minute and stop playing fantasy football and mock GMs.
What I say or you say or suggest will not influence or impact what gets done at Halas Hall. We've all been doing this for years right along with the media. There are countless lists of UFA targets the Bears should sign. There are also dozens of mocks with a new one coming out about once a day from someone. That stuff is all out there and all I'm saying is I don't care to add my own opinions to it this year. I'm taking a different stance.
IMHO "Moon" Mullin approached is as I have been. I'm looking at various positions and/or units trying to figure out whether we gained ground (a +/plus), we lost ground (a -/minus), or it ended up being basically neutral. That's it. I'm not gonna debate whether Stephon Gilmore is a better player today than Julius Peppers was in 2010 which is what butkus seems to want to debate. There's no accurate way to do that objectively.
My point was simple and I thought easily enough understood. It's based on the question of whether or not Pace can rebuild this team to a championship level quickly and effectively using only the draft as his primary source of top tier core and impact players. I'm not the only one asking that question either. Many others have raised their eyebrows over his approach to this as well and have questioned the same thing. Can he do that?
FA is used as a way to fill immediate needs that cannot be as easily filled in an upcoming draft. By avoiding top tier players is he lengthening the time frame it will take to field a top tier team? It's not hard to compute objectively that if you lose top tier talent and fail to replace it in kind you regress. Isn't that exactly what happened to our defense as the top guys from the 2000s began to age and retire or were released? Isn't that what's happening to our offense now? So are we gaining ground or losing ground? This is the point I'm making.
I'm gonna let you all wrangle over specific players both in FA and the draft. It's not that I have no opinions about it it's more based on this being less important the the overall scheme of what's being done to manage the team more effectively and rebuild it and as I see it nothing has changed over the past three years. We keep doing the same old shit and each spring we all look forward to better results. Are we getting them? Not yet.
So I've simply stopped looking forward to better days and instead stayed focused on actions rather than words. Like I've said. From now on they have to show improvement on the field not in the media or on the corporate website. In short they need to win.
There is a way to do it objectively. Further, Pace has indicated how he wants to build this team. He has said he wants to build it for SUSTAINED success. I want him to do that too. I am uninterested in a 1 year playoff run.
+1 And I am not saying Pace hasn't made mistakes. But I want to reserve my overall judgment of the team until I see this 2017 team play this year. I am super-curious to watch this offense perform. Nothing against Cutler, but I am relieved he is gone. Towards the end of his tenure here, the man was surrounded by a lot of talent, yet the offenses often disappointed. I went back last week and looked at some of those rosters on offense. He had some very solid weapons in the latter years. Finally, we couldn't even blame the OL for the offense. And I'm an OL zealot.
We will have a lot of new young players on offense, and a new QB. It may be a rough start initially but as the season progresses we may be very pleasantly surprised by this offense. Even with Glennon. But whether or not that happens, it seems crazy to give up on this year's team before the draft has even been completed and the final 53-man roster crafted - and "real" football games played in the "real" season... regular season games & not the pre-season glorified practice games. I am in that "wait and see" mode right now.
Pace, like it or not, has been actively removing just about any and all pieces from before he was here. Has has wanted to rebuild this entire team from the ground up and he has done it. And the thing is, this team has been average to bad for so long, what's it matter if he did start over? Fact is if the O is worse, it will be only slightly; and I'm not sure there is proof, other then losing AJ that it is worse.
That is a good point. Ryan Pace has nuked the entire roster since day-1 of his arrival, and it really is his team now. The last vestiges of Angelo and Emery are pretty much gone.
I would guess most of those who were ranked as top players at their positions. It's a pretty subjective question. You and I may not agree on any of them so again I'll say that I am not getting into specific players either in UFA or the draft. I'm only looking at the sum total of above average and impact players we have and it's lacking.
Overall we seem to be losing more above average or impact players than we're gaining because we aren't replacing them in kind with players at their level. No one can argue that the caliber of the offense has not regressed. This is what I see and I would approach UFA differently because of it.
We won't know the definitive answer to that until we see this offense perform in the regular season. We haven't even had the draft yet, much less seen the final roster perform in real games this year. I do believe it is reasonable to evaluate the team's performance in real games this year. A team is very much a real-world example of that Aristotle saying, “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.” Let's see the team perform this year. It could be garbage. It could be mediocre. It could pleasantly surprise us and be solid. We don't know yet. That's why they play the games each year.
Come on bother we sure as hell do have a definitive answer to that. Unless you have a different way of looking at losing 13 games due at least in large part to an offense who could only average 16-17 points per game the offense has regressed.
All that's debatable now is whether or not that will continue. That we don't have an answer to that yet I would agree but that's future tense not past tense as I clearly indicated by the term "regressed". It was obviously "regressing" throughout last season when compared to 2015 and certainly had "regressed" by seasons end. That's not even in doubt here.
Other than this I stand by what I posted. So far we seem to be going into battle having left the offense with less talent than last year and one run by the same HC and OC. I realize the proof will only be found on the field and that's what I'll be watching for too but so far I'm not all that impressed.
I would guess most of those who were ranked as top players at their positions. It's a pretty subjective question. You and I may not agree on any of them so again I'll say that I am not getting into specific players either in UFA or the draft. I'm only looking at the sum total of above average and impact players we have and it's lacking.
Overall we seem to be losing more above average or impact players than we're gaining because we aren't replacing them in kind with players at their level. No one can argue that the caliber of the offense has not regressed. This is what I see and I would approach UFA differently because of it.
The only "losses" on offense this offseason were Cutler and Jeffery. Let's take them one by one.
I have a hard time calling the Cutler-Glennon transition (plus a draft pick coming up) a "loss". I know you will likely disagree. The team was moving on from Jay no matter what and justifiably so. It was tried and didn't work out. Some of that is on the team and some of it on Jay personally. Regardless, Cutler is injured (still not medically cleared) and he's 33-34 now. Glennon may outplay Cutler or he may play at a similar level going forward but he's younger, healthier, and has potential upside that Jay no longer has.
Jeffery was a loss no doubt but it's become apparent from the deal he took with Philly that he simply didn't want to be here anymore. Due to his injuries/suspension, his production the last 2 years was no better that what Wright, Wheaton, and Meredith have also done in their careers. I agree that AJ probably has a higher ceiling than those 3 if he returns to his previous form from 2013-14. We shall see if he does. Pace is undoubtedly hoping Kevin White finally produces this coming year like his draft status says he should and that Cam takes the next step.
Everyone else on O is returning and Sims has been added as a good blocking TE who has some receiving ability to be exploited. All in all, I don't see the offense as that much worse off and we haven't even drafted yet. I think this O can be reasonably good if Logg calls an offense that isn't as pass happy as last year.
But you do see it as potentially being worse off?
I'm not gonna debate whether it was time to move on from Cutler or whether or not AJ should have or even could have been retained. It will end up being a circular debate because there are certainly valid arguments for both sides. What we can most likely agree on at least objectively is this.
Mike Glennon is not better than Jay Cutler and even together Wheaton and Wright do not offer the same set of pass catching skills or threat AJ did when healthy and on the field. What may happen isn't known just yet but objectively the level of talent has been reduced at least somewhat today and today is where we are now.
The rest is all subjective where Pace and Fox are wagering they've actually improved the offense via subtraction which may or may not be the case. Often it's not, like in Kevin White has not replaced Brandon Marshall. Maybe Cam Meredith can though. But all we're left with is a set of maybe's and that's what's being promoted by Halas Hall right?
What I keep saying is this is just more of the same talk we've been hearing for the majority of time this team has been run as it has and is still being run and I'm just not buying into the hype right now. I'm still seeing a tear down of what was with any benefits from simply swapping some talent around as an unknown.
That said it's hard to sell improvement when you can't look at the overall changes and see a positive gain. At best it's pretty neutral as is depending on Dowell Loggains to suddenly toss more of the pass plays from his game plan once he gets behind. Again is all assumptive and I'm not gonna do that this year. I'd love to be proven wrong mp but this time they're gonna have to actually do that not just talk about it.
In year three of his resurrection task I don't want to hear the words "we have a lot of work to do" anymore. Do it......or don't but then move aside for someone who can get the job done correctly.
Alex the day the Bears hire me to make or suggest personnel moves I'll get more specific and you'll all see that but they haven't called me and asked me to do that. Let's get real for a minute and stop playing fantasy football and mock GMs.
What I say or you say or suggest will not influence or impact what gets done at Halas Hall. We've all been doing this for years right along with the media. There are countless lists of UFA targets the Bears should sign. There are also dozens of mocks with a new one coming out about once a day from someone. That stuff is all out there and all I'm saying is I don't care to add my own opinions to it this year. I'm taking a different stance.
IMHO "Moon" Mullin approached is as I have been. I'm looking at various positions and/or units trying to figure out whether we gained ground (a +/plus), we lost ground (a -/minus), or it ended up being basically neutral. That's it. I'm not gonna debate whether Stephon Gilmore is a better player today than Julius Peppers was in 2010 which is what butkus seems to want to debate. There's no accurate way to do that objectively.
My point was simple and I thought easily enough understood. It's based on the question of whether or not Pace can rebuild this team to a championship level quickly and effectively using only the draft as his primary source of top tier core and impact players. I'm not the only one asking that question either. Many others have raised their eyebrows over his approach to this as well and have questioned the same thing. Can he do that?
FA is used as a way to fill immediate needs that cannot be as easily filled in an upcoming draft. By avoiding top tier players is he lengthening the time frame it will take to field a top tier team? It's not hard to compute objectively that if you lose top tier talent and fail to replace it in kind you regress. Isn't that exactly what happened to our defense as the top guys from the 2000s began to age and retire or were released? Isn't that what's happening to our offense now? So are we gaining ground or losing ground? This is the point I'm making.
I'm gonna let you all wrangle over specific players both in FA and the draft. It's not that I have no opinions about it it's more based on this being less important the the overall scheme of what's being done to manage the team more effectively and rebuild it and as I see it nothing has changed over the past three years. We keep doing the same old shit and each spring we all look forward to better results. Are we getting them? Not yet.
So I've simply stopped looking forward to better days and instead stayed focused on actions rather than words. Like I've said. From now on they have to show improvement on the field not in the media or on the corporate website. In short they need to win.
There is a way to do it objectively. Further, Pace has indicated how he wants to build this team. He has said he wants to build it for SUSTAINED success. I want him to do that too. I am uninterested in a 1 year playoff run.
Given that in most cases we're debating players who play different positions I don't know how we could objectively compare CBs to DEs or OLBs to Safeties, etc. Even if we debated the very best 4-3 DE which Pep was in 2010 vs the best 4-3 DE today we still may not agree objectively.
Objectively we might compare Glennon to Cutler since they're both current starting QBs, or at least one of them will be. Or we could debate Wright vs AJ as WRs. But not Gilmore or Jefferson or Bouye vs Pep in 2010. My only reason for offering him was as an example of a top tier player at a position of dire need period. That's all.
I simply believe we do need to add some top tier core starters and impact players through FA as we have done with a few like Trevathan, Freeman, Sitton, and McPhee. Of these four alone we've had some attrition due to injuries and a possible erosion of skills as well. We may not have a definitive answer on that part 'til fall.
I don't disagree with the sustained success part. In fact it's just the opposite. I'm just questioning some of the methodology used and I'm always questioning to what degree upper management influences this approach monetarily. And with good reason I think. As I said it's not about NOT spending money it's HOW it's spent that concerns me.
None of us are interested in a one year playoff run and I don't know what I've ever posted that would make you feel that I am either. I'm all about the antithesis of that. The only problem is Ted Phillips and the McCaskeys have never proven to be effective long term thinkers and planners or we wouldn't be where we are today.
It's been a poorly run team and even more so of late so without any real changes in those who do actually run this team, and even less of a commitment to adding higher level talent than usual why should we believe any talk about being in it to win now. Their actions belie that as do Ryan Pace's pleas for patience and his attempts to resell, or perhaps oversell, those improvements he has been making.
Are they really improvements? That's what I've been asking. Or will we once again be posting this fall how this team simply lacks the talent to compete against better teams?