PFF Week 10 grades

davidl
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PFF Week 10 grades Nov 17, 2022 17:06:46 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 17, 2022 17:06:46 GMT -6

Nov 17, 2022 13:08:03 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Nov 16, 2022 21:18:10 GMT -6 davidl said:

PFF has a detailed explanation of the player grades on their own website…

www.pff.com/grades

They say that they are measuring “a player’s contribution to production on a given play.”

As I said, they are only evaluating how well the player executed on every play.

I think one of the key sentences is under the section entitled “Player Rankings.” You seem to believe that if pff gives a player a higher grade than another player that mean they are saying that guy is a better player. They explicitly deny that: “We are not necessarily telling you who the best players are. Our rankings are more of a performance evaluation and a reflection of how efficiently a player made plays in the time he was on the field.”

Regardless the outcome of the play, the player gets a high grade by executing his assignment on the play — what Eberflus calls “consistent execution.” That is what pff intends to measure, and that is all they claim to measure.

but they also state they don't take into consideration the scheme, and as we all know, no one knows the play outside of the players and the coaches. They cannot grade a players per play, if they don't know or care about the scheme, nor know the play. It's bollocks.

True, but they also state that, if it's not clear what the player's assignment was on a particular play, they don't grade it. For example, if there is a blown coverage, they may not be able to tell who was supposed to be responsible for covering the guy. Or two receivers crash into each other. Etc. Or the QB throws to a spot, and the receiver breaks the opposite directions. There are plays like that in every game. They say that is not a big issue, because that still leaves a large number of plays to grade the guy on over the course of the season. I used to teach sampling theory to graduate students back in my professorial days, and with a sample this large, the sampling error would have to be very large (and no reason why it should be) to skew the results very much. They are right about that.

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Last Edit: Nov 17, 2022 17:15:58 GMT -6 by davidl

paytonisgod
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PFF Week 10 grades Nov 18, 2022 9:17:53 GMT -6 davidl likes this

Post by paytonisgod on Nov 18, 2022 9:17:53 GMT -6

Nov 17, 2022 17:06:46 GMT -6 davidl said:

Nov 17, 2022 13:08:03 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

but they also state they don't take into consideration the scheme, and as we all know, no one knows the play outside of the players and the coaches. They cannot grade a players per play, if they don't know or care about the scheme, nor know the play. It's bollocks.

True, but they also state that, if it's not clear what the player's assignment was on a particular play, they don't grade it. For example, if there is a blown coverage, they may not be able to tell who was supposed to be responsible for covering the guy. Or two receivers crash into each other. Etc. Or the QB throws to a spot, and the receiver breaks the opposite directions. There are plays like that in every game. They say that is not a big issue, because that still leaves a large number of plays to grade the guy on over the course of the season. I used to teach sampling theory to graduate students back in my professorial days, and with a sample this large, the sampling error would have to be very large (and no reason why it should be) to skew the results very much. They are right about that.

Your correct in understanding how PFF does it's grades. However, you should might as well save your breath. There are people in this forum and elsewhere who either don't understand what their ratings mean or just want to dunk on them because they disagreed with one of their scores at some point. I'm not sure why PFF brings on the hate like that but there it is.

There are definitely criticisms that can be made against them. The raters don't know the plays, but of course no outside evaluator does. So they're not really different than anyone else watching the game in that regard. They do put their ratings out very quickly which could be a concern as far as accuracy, but I haven't seen anything pointed that says they aren't adhering to their stated system.

I personally find PFF can be useful in taking a second look at a player you may have had a different idea about. There are a number of players out there who aren't flashy but just consistently do their job well. PFF can often reveal those kinds of players while also exposing players who make flashy highlight reals but are inconsistent. It's just another resource to look at it when trying to evaluate players.

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Last Edit: Nov 18, 2022 9:18:12 GMT -6 by paytonisgod

brasilbear
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PFF Week 10 grades Nov 18, 2022 10:57:31 GMT -6

Post by brasilbear on Nov 18, 2022 10:57:31 GMT -6

Its because they present the grades without context. They also list the grades in their graphics from highest to lowest without giving that context. What would be better would be to list the grades for the starters first, have a dashed line and then give the grades for the non-starters.

They won't do it that way for the same reason the NFL won't fix the officiating. Its all about clicks and attention.

Personally, I don't use PFF grades because of this. Maybe thats my error here. I have other sources I prefer and trust more.

Quote

Link to a site that replays full games. Don't know how long it will be up:

fullmatchtv.com/?s=Bears

chitown-bears.com/thread/7525/jalen-carter-thread

davidl
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PFF Week 10 grades Nov 18, 2022 12:18:37 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 18, 2022 12:18:37 GMT -6

Nov 18, 2022 10:57:31 GMT -6 brasilbear said:

Its because they present the grades without context. They also list the grades in their graphics from highest to lowest without giving that context. What would be better would be to list the grades for the starters first, have a dashed line and then give the grades for the non-starters.

They won't do it that way for the same reason the NFL won't fix the officiating. Its all about clicks and attention.

Personally, I don't use PFF grades because of this. Maybe thats my error here. I have other sources I prefer and trust more.

1. They give the snap count that the grade is based on, and that's more relevant than whether the guy was on the field for the first series of downs.
2. I don't see how your dashed line would change much for their subscribers.
3. What is your better source for measuring "consistent execution" (not other stuff)?

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davidl
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PFF Week 10 grades Nov 18, 2022 12:19:35 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 18, 2022 12:19:35 GMT -6

Nov 18, 2022 9:17:53 GMT -6 paytonisgod said:

Nov 17, 2022 17:06:46 GMT -6 davidl said:

True, but they also state that, if it's not clear what the player's assignment was on a particular play, they don't grade it. For example, if there is a blown coverage, they may not be able to tell who was supposed to be responsible for covering the guy. Or two receivers crash into each other. Etc. Or the QB throws to a spot, and the receiver breaks the opposite directions. There are plays like that in every game. They say that is not a big issue, because that still leaves a large number of plays to grade the guy on over the course of the season. I used to teach sampling theory to graduate students back in my professorial days, and with a sample this large, the sampling error would have to be very large (and no reason why it should be) to skew the results very much. They are right about that.

Your correct in understanding how PFF does it's grades. However, you should might as well save your breath. There are people in this forum and elsewhere who either don't understand what their ratings mean or just want to dunk on them because they disagreed with one of their scores at some point. I'm not sure why PFF brings on the hate like that but there it is.

There are definitely criticisms that can be made against them. The raters don't know the plays, but of course no outside evaluator does. So they're not really different than anyone else watching the game in that regard. They do put their ratings out very quickly which could be a concern as far as accuracy, but I haven't seen anything pointed that says they aren't adhering to their stated system.

I personally find PFF can be useful in taking a second look at a player you may have had a different idea about. There are a number of players out there who aren't flashy but just consistently do their job well. PFF can often reveal those kinds of players while also exposing players who make flashy highlight reals but are inconsistent. It's just another resource to look at it when trying to evaluate players.

Any scientist will tell you that there are limitations and measurement errors in any tool, and PFF is no exception. They are honest in acknowledging the limitations and error sources in their player grades.

One of the imperfections is that they have a degree of difficulty criterion in grading execution. It is the same concept as used by judges in the Olympics for events like diving or gymnastics. That determination is inherently subjective.

Obviously, the player’s pff grade in a single game is more unreliable than his grade and ranking over the entire season where there is a much larger sample of plays in the calculation.

You are right that the fans remember the big plays that affect the outcome of the game more than whether the guy did his job consistently over the course of the game, but pff is unconcerned about the outcome of the play — only whether the guy executed his assignment on the play — what Eberflus calls “consistent execution.”

But here’s one important thing not captured by a pff grade: Great players make great plays in critical game situations while lesser players choke under pressure. Pff grade does nothing to measure that, but fans DO notice and remember, and that strongly affects how we feel about players.

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Last Edit: Nov 18, 2022 12:20:42 GMT -6 by davidl

brasilbear
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PFF Week 10 grades Nov 18, 2022 12:37:09 GMT -6

Post by brasilbear on Nov 18, 2022 12:37:09 GMT -6

I'm not interested in a long discussion about this. I don't want to play semantic games with anyone who assumes that the 11 guys on the field for the first play are the starters. As far as PFF subscribers, they obviously see the value of PFF so I think they would understand that the dashed line marks the start of the grades for the 2nd and 3rd string players. None of the tweets I've seen from PFF or quoating PFF grades have the snap count on them. I'm not claiming to have seen them all, but I can't recall snap counts being listed. If I missed that, then thats on me.

I prefer game reports and player grades from beat reporters, and other writers who attach their names to their work.

If you disagree, thats ok.

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Link to a site that replays full games. Don't know how long it will be up:

fullmatchtv.com/?s=Bears

chitown-bears.com/thread/7525/jalen-carter-thread

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Post by davidl on Nov 17, 2022 17:06:46 GMT -6

Post by paytonisgod on Nov 18, 2022 9:17:53 GMT -6

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Post by davidl on Nov 18, 2022 12:18:37 GMT -6

Post by davidl on Nov 18, 2022 12:19:35 GMT -6

Post by brasilbear on Nov 18, 2022 12:37:09 GMT -6